Featured Can you prove by Scripture

Yes they still have the will. They may not be allowed to exercise it yet they still have it.

In your mind maybe. You keep telling people they are slaves to sin. Since the beginning of time slaves have escaped there bonds because they have a freewill. This is a free country we can be what ever we want to be.All we need is the will to resist. Your definition of slavery is flawed. You try to make it seem as if it is unbreakable and it isn't.

Not true Salvery has never over come the will of man. He still has a desire for freedom. It's why we founded this country.

These scripture are true but have nothing to do with the freewill of man.

MB[/QUOTE]

 

Oh the arrogance of youth. I fully understand the "discussions" some of which are biblical. You just prove the point that I made, you do not think you just throw out the same old canards. But that is to be expected. Just look at your DoG and be honest with yourself. How do those not make you a programed robot. You have no choice and you have to hope that you are in fact one of the lucky ones. Even your faith is not your own.

You seem content to live with that but I trust scripture in that God gave us the ability to think and make choices and expects us to do so and He will hold us responsible for our choices.

Your WCF/LBCF and DoG all make it so you do not really make any choices, they have all been determined for you. If everything is determined for you that is just another way of saying it was all programed and if you are programed then that means you are acting as a robot. If that term offends you, sorry but what else would you call it. You reject free will so what is left but no free will and you have bought into that.

 

I once again notice zero scripture. Only a tortured philosophy trying to reason away God's sovereign rule over all his creation. I see the attempt to make God evil and humans robots if full freedom of the will is not placed in the authority of all human beings. The strawman is created that if humans do not have the capacity to choose their own actions, they therefore become robots of the one who acts as their master.

Would anyone suggest that a severely disabled person is a robot because they are at the mercy of their caregiver? Would the caregiver be a tyrant for choosing to give care to the disabled person? Such foolish thinking is what you suggest of the Christian who rightly supports the biblical doctrine of election and predestination under the choice of the Almighty God.

Since you have no legitimate biblical support and promote a strawman of your own making, I find your philosophy empty of any merit. You have abandoned scripture in order to hold an intellectual strawman.

 

The way I understand it, God sends the reason we base our choice on. So we incur guilt or reward because it is the choice we wanted to make. But it is God who controls our choices.

 

I tend to see Paul telling us here that even after saved, we have no power in us to live for Christ, and must rely upon the indwelling Holy Spirit!

 

BINGO!

 

God's will is perfect. Any change in His decree would be to imperfection ruling out His free will. In this, He determined our choices, (part of his eternal plan, or as He says, "the end from the beginning") so neither do we have free will.

“Remember the former things of old: For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times the things that are not yet done, Saying, My counsel shall stand, And I will do all my pleasure:” Isaiah 46:9–10 (KJV 1900)

 

Here is Paul's free will!... Brother Glen

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Btw... If it is Paul's, its ours too!

 

Jesus Christ, unless you substitute a false understanding of Him that involves you in idol worship. Take care in how you describe Him.

 

God is beneath the choices, even sin, all leading to the fulfillment of His eternal decree. How could He know everything if you can change the course of history?

 

You are the ones that have made God a robot master, your determinism requires that. Read your own LBCF or DoG and tell me that you can really make free will choices. You cannot. Your denial that man has a God given free will just shows your attachment to the Calvinist system.
Do you actually read what you write. before you post it.

>>The strawman is created that if humans do not have the capacity to choose their own actions, they therefore become robots of the one who acts as their master.<<
If man cannot chose anything then that requires that all things are directed by their master. In other words you can do nothing of your own free will so you are just a human robot.

If your view of election and predestination were in fact biblical, but since that is not the case.

All man are sinful: Rom_3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Man knows he is a sinner: Joh_16:8
"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

And in his state of sin and unbelief he stands condemned: Joh_3:18
he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

He can only come to the Father [be saved] through belief in Jesus: Joh_14:6
Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

This is done by trusting in Jesus as Lord and Saviour: Rom_10:9, Rom_10:13
10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

For the man to come to faith in Christ, he has to be drawn: Joh_6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

And all are being drawn: Joh_12:32
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Those weight down by sin are invited to come: Mat_11:28
"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Jesus came to save the lost, the sinners: Luk_19:10; 1Ti_1:15
19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."
1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners,

The gospel message is used to draw people: Eph_1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

For the man who hears and learns will be drawn: Joh_6:45
"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Salvation is available to all: Rom_2:4
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

The sacrifice Jesus made is for everyone: 1Jn_2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Can be applied to anyone: Rom_3:25 b, Rom_3:26
This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

This is the heart of God, the salvation of man 1Ti_2:3-4
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The Father sent His son as saviour of the world: Joh_3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

 

The way I understand it, God sends the reason we base our choice on. So we incur guilt or reward because it is the choice we wanted to make. But it is God who controls our choices. Post # 24

God is beneath the choices, even sin, all leading to the fulfillment of His eternal decree. How could He know everything if you can change the course of history? Post # 33

Dave would you care to explain how man can incur guilt or reward if it is actually God that has made the choice for him? You want to make man responsible for actions he has no control over, unless of course you mean that man has an actual God given free will. If that is the case than yes man can and does incur guilt or reward for his actions.

 

Where did you miss it? You make God a spectator and you control Him.

 

I don't think so. You seem to make God a learner (violates omniscience) and to base His plans on what man chooses to do or doesn't choose to do. This might as well be Atheism.

 

Silverhair,

Not sure who you are referring to ?