Can you prove by Scripture

[MB]

Both of these Scriptures is addressed to believers, not unbelievers.

Do slaves have true freedom of the will?

Yes they still have the will. They may not be allowed to exercise it yet they still have it.

Did I not post scriptures that show the former estate of the believers was that of slavery to the world?

In your mind maybe. You keep telling people they are slaves to sin. Since the beginning of time slaves have escaped there bonds because they have a freewill. This is a free country we can be what ever we want to be.All we need is the will to resist. Your definition of slavery is flawed. You try to make it seem as if it is unbreakable and it isn't.

The only folks with true freedom of the will are believers.

Not true Salvery has never over come the will of man. He still has a desire for freedom. It's why we founded this country.

Ephesians 3:

14For this reason I bend my knees before the Father, 15from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, 16that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner self,17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the widthand length and height and depth, 19and to know the love of Christ which surpassesknowledge, that you may be filled to all the fullness of God.
​

Colossians 3:

15And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. 16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
​

These scripture are true but have nothing to do with the freewill of man.

MB[/QUOTE]

 

[Silverhair]

silverhair is frustrated in that he cannot grasp the biblical discussions,so he blames everyone else.
it is easier to suggest everyone else is at fault rather tham admit to defective theological concepts.
the free will idol is placed front and center once again....it blinds many.
notice he suggests we say men do not make choices,when in fact everyone of us affirms that men make choices.
this is disingenuous.

Oh the arrogance of youth. I fully understand the "discussions" some of which are biblical. You just prove the point that I made, you do not think you just throw out the same old canards. But that is to be expected. Just look at your DoG and be honest with yourself. How do those not make you a programed robot. You have no choice and you have to hope that you are in fact one of the lucky ones. Even your faith is not your own.

You seem content to live with that but I trust scripture in that God gave us the ability to think and make choices and expects us to do so and He will hold us responsible for our choices.

Your WCF/LBCF and DoG all make it so you do not really make any choices, they have all been determined for you. If everything is determined for you that is just another way of saying it was all programed and if you are programed then that means you are acting as a robot. If that term offends you, sorry but what else would you call it. You reject free will so what is left but no free will and you have bought into that.

 

[AustinC]

Oh the arrogance of youth. I fully understand the "discussions" some of which are biblical. You just prove the point that I made, you do not think you just throw out the same old canards. But that is to be expected. Just look at your DoG and be honest with yourself. How do those not make you a programed robot. You have no choice and you have to hope that you are in fact one of the lucky ones. Even your faith is not your own.

You seem content to live with that but I trust scripture in that God gave us the ability to think and make choices and expects us to do so and He will hold us responsible for our choices.

Your WCF/LBCF and DoG all make it so you do not really make any choices, they have all been determined for you. If everything is determined for you that is just another way of saying it was all programed and if you are programed then that means you are acting as a robot. If that term offends you, sorry but what else would you call it. You reject free will so what is left but no free will and you have bought into that.

I once again notice zero scripture. Only a tortured philosophy trying to reason away God's sovereign rule over all his creation. I see the attempt to make God evil and humans robots if full freedom of the will is not placed in the authority of all human beings. The strawman is created that if humans do not have the capacity to choose their own actions, they therefore become robots of the one who acts as their master.

Would anyone suggest that a severely disabled person is a robot because they are at the mercy of their caregiver? Would the caregiver be a tyrant for choosing to give care to the disabled person? Such foolish thinking is what you suggest of the Christian who rightly supports the biblical doctrine of election and predestination under the choice of the Almighty God.

Since you have no legitimate biblical support and promote a strawman of your own making, I find your philosophy empty of any merit. You have abandoned scripture in order to hold an intellectual strawman.

 

[1689Dave]

Can you prove by Scripture that there is true freedom of the will?

Does not the Scripture state, “For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”

Does not the Scripture state, “But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.”

My own view is that God is the creator of parameters and establishes boundaries.

The unbeliever may know and give according to the boundaries established by God. One of those is that the heart (will) of the unbeliever is “desperately wicked. And in such a state of wickedness is slavery, not freedom.

The way I understand it, God sends the reason we base our choice on. So we incur guilt or reward because it is the choice we wanted to make. But it is God who controls our choices.

 

[Yeshua1]

To me, Paul is describing his desires post-conversion...i.e. after the Lord had changed him on the road to Damascus and he had believed on Christ.
Similar to Galatians 5:17, he is confessing that he still could not obey the Lord because of his wicked flesh even though to will to do so was present in him.

Which brings us to Romans 8 and mortifying the deeds of the body through the Spirit, and not by our own efforts through the flesh.

I tend to see Paul telling us here that even after saved, we have no power in us to live for Christ, and must rely upon the indwelling Holy Spirit!

 

[kyredneck]

The only folks with true freedom of the will are believers.

BINGO!

 

[1689Dave]

God's will is perfect. Any change in His decree would be to imperfection ruling out His free will. In this, He determined our choices, (part of his eternal plan, or as He says, "the end from the beginning") so neither do we have free will.

“Remember the former things of old: For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times the things that are not yet done, Saying, My counsel shall stand, And I will do all my pleasure:” Isaiah 46:9–10 (KJV 1900)

 

[tyndale1946]

BINGO!

Here is Paul's free will!... Brother Glen

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Btw... If it is Paul's, its ours too!

 

[agedman]

Yes they still have the will. They may not be allowed to exercise it yet they still have it.


In your mind maybe. You keep telling people they are slaves to sin. Since the beginning of time slaves have escaped there bonds because they have a freewill. This is a free country we can be what ever we want to be.All we need is the will to resist. Your definition of slavery is flawed. You try to make it seem as if it is unbreakable and it isn't.



Not true Salvery has never over come the will of man. He still has a desire for freedom. It's why we founded this country.


These scripture are true but have nothing to do with the freewill of man.

MB

I don't suppose you have ever heard or encountered someone with Stockholm syndrome?
Stockholm syndrome, psychological response wherein a captive begins to identify closely with his or her captors, as well as with their agenda and demands. (Encyclopedia Britannica)

When you here someone say, "I'll see you in hell," that is a verbal indication of what binds the will. The will of the unbeliever from birth is conditioned to lie, cheat, steal, ... . That is the worldly nature that serves the master - the god of this world.

All unbelievers are enslaved to the worldly nature. As such they may choose from what God has provided as a general blessing to all humanity, however, there is no indication in Scripture that a slave merely by their will ever achieved freedom of the will, but were continuously submissive to the master of their life. All unbelievers are ungodly, and as such they are the subjects of the god of this world. Christ even calls unbelievers servants of the devil, or their father is the devil.

The slavery to sin is unbreakable unless the person has the Holy Spirit and the washing and renewal of the Mind by the Word of God, just as I posted. Such is not found in the unbeliever. They may certainly quit some bad habit, or try to reform some in some manner, but as the Christ said, "Even you (unbelievers) know how to give good gifts." The question is not what is "good" but what is both the "good and perfect" that only comes from Heaven.

The believer is perfected in Christ, yet still the old nature (old will) would try to usurp the New Nature (as Paul stated the need to die daily to this world) in attempts to corrupt the testimony of the Christian. Often such does in fact happen which is why the letters to the various churches encourage folks to life for Christ and to put off the old ways of life. The believer has the true freedom of choice unavailable to the unbeliever.

MB, I would recommend you read from the link I provided in an above post to a writing by Johnathan Edwards.
He was a brilliant theologian, and although he writes at a very high level of comprehension (for he was addressing famous philosopers and their corrupt philosophies that are even propagated to this day) perhaps you might find it instructive to understanding. Not everyone has the reading level to work totally through what Johnathan Edwards presents, for he is extremely tedious as he attacks each philosophy on multiple fronts and destroys them .

Johnathan Edwards is recognized as the greatest theologian of colonial America, He entered Yale at 13 years old and graduated in two years. Like I said the man was brilliant. He also put feet to his salvation by not only being a past or but at the same time was working as one of the earliest missionaries to the native Americans.

However, as great as he was, he and I would disagree on the matter of eschatology.

 

[agedman]

The way I understand it, God sends the reason we base our choice on. So we incur guilt or reward because it is the choice we wanted to make. But it is God who controls our choices.

Which god/God?

The god of the unbelievers brings empty promises.

The God of believers brings life eternal.

 

[1689Dave]

Which god/God?

The god of the unbelievers brings empty promises.

The God of believers brings life eternal.

Jesus Christ, unless you substitute a false understanding of Him that involves you in idol worship. Take care in how you describe Him.

 

[agedman]

God's will is perfect. Any change in His decree would be to imperfection ruling out His free will. In this, He determined our choices, (part of his eternal plan, or as He says, "the end from the beginning") so neither do we have free will.

“Remember the former things of old: For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times the things that are not yet done, Saying, My counsel shall stand, And I will do all my pleasure:” Isaiah 46:9–10 (KJV 1900)

Believers do have a choice between the old nature (will) and that which is the New Nature (New Will).

In ability to choose there is true freedom of the will and that choice brings outward evidence in expressions and manner of life, however, no choices and expression of the will (old or new) is without consequences.

The greatest joy the dear apostle John expressed was "to hear that my children (believers) walking in the truth"

 

[1689Dave]

Believers do have a choice between the old nature (will) and that which is the New Nature (New Will).

In ability to choose there is true freedom of the will and that choice brings outward evidence in expressions and manner of life, however, no choices and expression of the will (old or new) is without consequences.

The greatest joy the dear apostle John expressed was "to hear that my children (believers) walking in the truth"

God is beneath the choices, even sin, all leading to the fulfillment of His eternal decree. How could He know everything if you can change the course of history?

 

[agedman]

God is beneath the choices, even sin, all leading to the fulfillment of His eternal decree. How could He know everything if you can change the course of history?

Agreed.
Nothing surprises God.
He knows the choices every person will make prior to the creation.

Though God is all knowing, humankind are not. They have choices to make, and every one has consequences.

When one considers that God manipulates time and space to His desire, and humans experience such changes (ever had a long day?) is just one evidence of His greatness at work in human time scheme.

Did not the Psalmist can say. " I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are thy works; and that my soul knows right well."?

 

[Silverhair]

I once again notice zero scripture. Only a tortured philosophy trying to reason away God's sovereign rule over all his creation. I see the attempt to make God evil and humans robots if full freedom of the will is not placed in the authority of all human beings. The strawman is created that if humans do not have the capacity to choose their own actions, they therefore become robots of the one who acts as their master.

Would anyone suggest that a severely disabled person is a robot because they are at the mercy of their caregiver? Would the caregiver be a tyrant for choosing to give care to the disabled person? Such foolish thinking is what you suggest of the Christian who rightly supports the biblical doctrine of election and predestination under the choice of the Almighty God.

Since you have no legitimate biblical support and promote a strawman of your own making, I find your philosophy empty of any merit. You have abandoned scripture in order to hold an intellectual strawman.

You are the ones that have made God a robot master, your determinism requires that. Read your own LBCF or DoG and tell me that you can really make free will choices. You cannot. Your denial that man has a God given free will just shows your attachment to the Calvinist system.
Do you actually read what you write. before you post it.

>>The strawman is created that if humans do not have the capacity to choose their own actions, they therefore become robots of the one who acts as their master.<<
If man cannot chose anything then that requires that all things are directed by their master. In other words you can do nothing of your own free will so you are just a human robot.

If your view of election and predestination were in fact biblical, but since that is not the case.

All man are sinful: Rom_3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Man knows he is a sinner: Joh_16:8
"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

And in his state of sin and unbelief he stands condemned: Joh_3:18
he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

He can only come to the Father [be saved] through belief in Jesus: Joh_14:6
Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

This is done by trusting in Jesus as Lord and Saviour: Rom_10:9, Rom_10:13
10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

For the man to come to faith in Christ, he has to be drawn: Joh_6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

And all are being drawn: Joh_12:32
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Those weight down by sin are invited to come: Mat_11:28
"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Jesus came to save the lost, the sinners: Luk_19:10; 1Ti_1:15
19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."
1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners,

The gospel message is used to draw people: Eph_1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

For the man who hears and learns will be drawn: Joh_6:45
"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Salvation is available to all: Rom_2:4
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

The sacrifice Jesus made is for everyone: 1Jn_2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Can be applied to anyone: Rom_3:25 b, Rom_3:26
This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

This is the heart of God, the salvation of man 1Ti_2:3-4
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The Father sent His son as saviour of the world: Joh_3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[Silverhair]

God is beneath the choices, even sin, all leading to the fulfillment of His eternal decree. How could He know everything if you can change the course of history?

The way I understand it, God sends the reason we base our choice on. So we incur guilt or reward because it is the choice we wanted to make. But it is God who controls our choices. Post # 24

God is beneath the choices, even sin, all leading to the fulfillment of His eternal decree. How could He know everything if you can change the course of history? Post # 33

Dave would you care to explain how man can incur guilt or reward if it is actually God that has made the choice for him? You want to make man responsible for actions he has no control over, unless of course you mean that man has an actual God given free will. If that is the case than yes man can and does incur guilt or reward for his actions.

 

[1689Dave]

Agreed.
Nothing surprises God.
He knows the choices every person will make prior to the creation.

Though God is all knowing, humankind are not. They have choices to make, and every one has consequences.

When one considers that God manipulates time and space to His desire, and humans experience such changes (ever had a long day?) is just one evidence of His greatness at work in human time scheme.

Did not the Psalmist can say. " I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are thy works; and that my soul knows right well."?

Where did you miss it? You make God a spectator and you control Him.

 

[agedman]

Where did you miss it? You make God a spectator and you control Him.

Perhaps you misread my post.

 

[1689Dave]

Perhaps you misread my post.

I don't think so. You seem to make God a learner (violates omniscience) and to base His plans on what man chooses to do or doesn't choose to do. This might as well be Atheism.

 

[Iconoclast]

Silverhair,

Oh the arrogance of youth.

Not sure who you are referring to ?

I fully understand the "discussions" some of which are biblical.[/QUOTE]

SH, you might think you understand that which is being discussed, but no one thinks that based on your posting,
In post #23...Austin spoke of you creating strawmen. I noticed you posted a list of scripture later on, so I will go over that also.

You just prove the point that I made, you do not think you just throw out the same old canards[

/QUOTE].

There have been no such canards. You try to avoid answering direct inquiries and attempt to divert away by such rhetoric.

You throw out such charges, But that is to be expected.[/QUOTE]

Just reacting to what you post.

Just look at your DoG and be honest with yourself.

Why would anyone hold a belief, and not be honest?
SH, do you hold a belief that you do not believe is true?
Most hold what they think they see in scripture, even if their spiritual eyesight is off.

How do those not make you a programed robot.[/QUOTE]

This is an example of what we refer to as a caricature and a strawman. Why is that?
Jesus did not feel He was a programmed robot when He said this-jn;6
38 For I came down from heaven,
not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Everyone has a will, a self will. Jesus submitted to the will of the Father.
Jesus's will was not bound or influenced by sinful flesh as our will is.
We are called to an obedience of faith.
SH, when we obey God as the Spirit works in us, do you consider that to be a programmed robot?
Solomon did not think it was; eccl12:
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

So God calls a sinner from darkness to light, grants a new heart willing to obey, this in your mind makes him a programmed robot??? Your statements make no sense.

You have no choice

I have and make choices every day. The ability to choose does not address the condition of your nature, or the state of your will.

[QUOTE]and you have to hope that you are in fact one of the lucky ones

.

No...I have an expectant hope based on Jesus promise to all who believe.

[QUOTE]Even your faith is not your own.

I have a God given saving faith that I had not formerly possessed. I exercise that faith every day now.

You seem content to live with that but I trust scripture [/QUOTE]

Every Cal I knows trusts scripture, that is why they are Calvinists...

in that God gave us the ability to think and make choices and expects us to do so and He will hold us responsible for our choices.

Yes, as I have posted we make thoughtful choices everyday, we are responsible to God every day

Your WCF/LBCF and DoG all make it so you do not really make any choices[/QUOTE],

Where do you see any such thing?

they have all been determined for you.

This is not taught anywhere.Only on non cal posts.

If everything is determined for you that is just another way of saying it was all programed and if you are programed then that means you are acting as a robot.

This point by point is your strawman.