Words have Meaning

[The Archangel]

The means by which something is accomplished, such as our Individual Conditional Election for Salvation is accomplished through or because of or by means of God crediting our faith as righteousness. Thus when you see "through faith" the idea is it is the means by which God chooses the individual to receive the contextual benefit.

You've said: "Thus when you see "through faith" the idea is it is the means by which God chooses the individual to receive the contextual benefit." This is meaning you're attaching to διὰ πίστεως. It is not the meaning that is inherent in the phrase.

At some point you should realize that the rules of Greek grammar do not bow to your wishes. But, considering your participation on this board in the past and now, that ship has apparently sailed.

The Archangel

 

[Van]

Yes, it's a prepositional phrase. But, "because of" could not have been chosen because "faith" is in the genitive, not the accusative. Again, there is no "formula" as to what δια means here. The grammarians--especially the ones I've posted--are abundantly clear here.

You really should not try to dig past the bottom of the hole you've already dug.

The Archangel

I listed four "stepping stones" of the "faith path" which connects the receiver of the action to the doer of the action. 1), Hearing the gospel, 2) heeding the gospel, 3) placing our full love and devotion upon Christ and 4) God crediting our faith as righteousness. If you remove any stepping stone, God's blessing is not received. Therefore any one with the intelligence of a gnat would agree the blessing reception is "because of" the faith path.

 

[Van]

You've said: "Thus when you see "through faith" the idea is it is the means by which God chooses the individual to receive the contextual benefit." This is meaning you're attaching to διὰ πίστεως. It is not the meaning that is inherent in the phrase.

At some point you should realize that the rules of Greek grammar do not bow to your wishes. But, considering your participation on this board in the past and now, that ship has apparently sailed.

The Archangel

On and on, obviously false charges are hurled.

How many times can you find "through or by faith" in the NT? About 19 times. Every time all the Calvinists rewrite the verse to say "not through faith." That is "not the meaning that is inherent in the phrase."

Does the post ever say what the phrase means or only that it does not mean what it means?

Galatians 3:26
For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith.

Here God's action is God causes those individuals to be born anew as children of God. And this action was accomplished through or because of or by means of the individuals faith as credited by God. Once again we see the idea that "through faith" refers to the path by which something is accomplished. Faith is the path through which the action is accomplish, but God is the source providing the action.

 

[The Archangel]

I listed four "stepping stones" of the "faith path" which connects the receiver of the action to the doer of the action. 1), Hearing the gospel, 2) heeding the gospel, 3) placing our full love and devotion upon Christ and 4) God crediting our faith as righteousness. If you remove any stepping stone, God's blessing is not received. Therefore any one with the intelligence of a gnat would agree the blessing reception is "because of" the faith path.

Except that you are arguing for a genitive to be treated as an accusative. "Because of" is how δια works with the accusative, not the genitive. It isn't a question of intelligence to argue for what the usage is. It may, however, be an issue of intelligence to argue against the rules of usage.

Again, you're assuming meaning that simply isn't there. I understand you want δια to mean "God crediting our faith as righteousness" but the grammar doesn't support your conclusion. Fighting the grammar, as you are, rarely turns out well. You would fair almost as well arguing that 2+2=5. So, good luck with that.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

On and on, obviously false charges are hurled.

How many times can you find "through or by faith" in the NT? About 19 times. Every time all the Calvinists rewrite the verse to say "not through faith." That is "not the meaning that is inherent in the phrase."

Does the post ever say what the phrase means or only that it does not mean what it means?

No one I know is saying "not through," so you can stop with the false charges. What I am saying is that "through" does not mean "because of," as you are insisting it does. Why am I arguing this? Because the examples you cite are in the genitive, and "because of" more related to the accusative. That's all.

Galatians 3:26
For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith.

Here God's action is God causes those individuals to be born anew as children of God. And this action was accomplished through or because of or by means of the individuals faith as credited by God. Once again we see the idea that "through faith" refers to the path by which something is accomplished. Faith is the path through which the action is accomplish, but God is the source providing the action.

This is an assumption--and a reading-into--on your part. The translation is "Through faith." But, through faith as opposed to what? In Galatians 3 the "opposed to" is probably the Law. But to assign "Because of," meaning "God crediting our faith as righteousness" is to do violence to the text. You're wanting a meaning that is not supported by lexical or grammatical rules, and you're trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

You're never going to get it right if you insist on breaking the grammar. Also, do more than just looking at a lexicon.

The Archangel

 

[Van]

Except that you are arguing for a genitive to be treated as an accusative. "Because of" is how δια works with the accusative, not the genitive. It isn't a question of intelligence to argue for what the usage is. It may, however, be an issue of intelligence to argue against the rules of usage.

Again, you're assuming meaning that simply isn't there. I understand you want δια to mean "God crediting our faith as righteousness" but the grammar doesn't support your conclusion. Fighting the grammar, as you are, rarely turns out well. You would fair almost as well arguing that 2+2=5. So, good luck with that.

The Archangel

I have explained this a number of times. You continue to ignore my viewpoint. Nuff said...
Have you explained what "through faith" means? Nope.
Did I say "dia" means "God crediting our faith as righteousness?" Nope so more obfuscation
I am agreeing with the grammar, "dia" working with a genitive means "by means of" and indicates the path through which the action is accomplished. The faith path has 4 stepping stones, (1) hearing the gospel, (2) heeding the gospel, (3) placing their full faith and devotion upon Christ and (4) God crediting our faith as righteousness. We receive the benefit of God's action because of those 4 stepping stones. If you remove any one, we do not receive the benefit.

 

[Van]

No one I know is saying "not through," so you can stop with the false charges. What I am saying is that "through" does not mean "because of," as you are insisting it does. Why am I arguing this? Because the examples you cite are in the genitive, and "because of" more related to the accusative. That's all.



This is an assumption--and a reading-into--on your part. The translation is "Through faith." But, through faith as opposed to what? In Galatians 3 the "opposed to" is probably the Law. But to assign "Because of," meaning "God crediting our faith as righteousness" is to do violence to the text. You're wanting a meaning that is not supported by lexical or grammatical rules, and you're trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

You're never going to get it right if you insist on breaking the grammar. Also, do more than just looking at a lexicon.

The Archangel

Every single Calvinist says not through faith because that view is the Conditional Election view which Calvinism rejects. Stop with the false charges and running from your doctrine...

See post # 106 for what I am saying...

 

[Van]

Ephesians 3:17 (NASB)
so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

Once again we see God's action of causing the indwelling the Spirit of Christ in the believer hearts being routed through the "faith path." The idea is that God's action is "by way of our credited faith."

 

[The Archangel]

Ephesians 3:17 (NASB)
so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

Once again we see God's action of causing the indwelling the Spirit of Christ in the believer hearts being routed through the "faith path." The idea is that God's action is "by way of our credited faith."

Why don't you try telling me where the verb in the passage is....

The Archangel

 

[Van]

Why don't you try telling me where the verb in the passage is....

The Archangel

Why are you not addressing the topic. I am addressing the meaning of the phrase "through faith" with the interpreted meaning of "by way of your credited faith."

Ephesians 3:17 (NASB)
so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

Once again we see God's action of causing the indwelling the Spirit of Christ in the believer hearts being routed through the "faith path." The idea is that God's action is "by way of your credited faith."

I know nothing of Greek grammar but just reading the English translation, "dwell" should be translating a Greek verb, and in the second part of the verse, being rooted and grounded also apparently translate Greek verbs.

 

[Van]

1 Thessalonians 3:7 includes a personal/possessive pronoun in the "through faith" prepositional phrase, thus reading "through your faith. Here Paul is reassured because Timothy brought the good news of their faith. Affliction had not caused them to waiver. Here, rather than an action by God, we have an action by Paul (and his helpers) of rejoicing by way of the faithful persistence of those he taught. Now they were still growing in the faith, and Paul wanted to nurture them, but the seed had rooted deeply, and that invigorated Paul.

NIV
Therefore, brothers and sisters, in all our distress and persecution we were encouraged about you because of your faith.

 

[The Archangel]

I know nothing of Greek grammar

This much, we agree on.

The problem then is that you are saying things about prepositions, etc. that you--by your own admission--"know nothing of." All the while, you're trying to tell my that the grammar supports your position and not mine... You have no basis, no acumen, by which to evaluate my statements or even you own. What is worse, you're arrogantly confident in your own ignorance, insisting that you are correct.

You know, you have been given a great gift here on Baptist Board. There are people who have actually studied these things--including Greek--at high levels. It could be a free education (of sorts) for you. But instead of listening as you should, you insist on speaking on that which you "know nothing of." You "know[ing] nothing of" Greek is not new revelation. It has been painfully obvious to anyone who has formally studied it. You're squandering a great opportunity to learn from some who know volumes more than you. What a pity you can't or won't learn.

The Archangel

 

[Van]

This much, we agree on.

The problem then is that you are saying things about prepositions, etc. that you--by your own admission--"know nothing of." All the while, you're trying to tell my that the grammar supports your position and not mine... You have no basis, no acumen, by which to evaluate my statements or even you own. What is worse, you're arrogantly confident in your own ignorance, insisting that you are correct.

You know, you have been given a great gift here on Baptist Board. There are people who have actually studied these things--including Greek--at high levels. It could be a free education (of sorts) for you. But instead of listening as you should, you insist on speaking on that which you "know nothing of." You "know[ing] nothing of" Greek is not new revelation. It has been painfully obvious to anyone who has formally studied it. You're squandering a great opportunity to learn from some who know volumes more than you. What a pity you can't or won't learn.

The Archangel

What has this diatribe have to do with your question concerning the verbs in Ephesians 3:17? Nothing
All you wanted to do was to disparage me. So you edited one of my statements and disregarded the rest.

Why does the NIV translate "dia" as "because of" when used with a genitive? See 1 Thessalonians 3:7. Perhaps the grammar is not decisive.

And remember folks, all this effort to change the subject to me is for the purpose of obfuscation. The truth is that "through faith" or "by way of faith" or "by means of faith" teaches God uses our faith as credited by Him, to bestow His salvation blessings. OTOH, Calvinism claims all these are bestowed "not through faith." Keep your eye on the ball...

 

[Van]

Context guides the interpreter of scripture as to the probable meaning of source language words, from within the range of their historical/grammatical meanings.

"Through faith" appears about 19 times in the New Testament. If interpreters use context, the meaning is usually that God uses the faith of the individual, if credited by God as righteousness, to bestow whatever blessing is in view. We become children of God through faith. We are saved by grace through faith.

And it would take a rather large about of "hutspah" to claim "through faith" actually means "not through faith."

 

[Marooncat79]

::mmm popcorn

What has this diatribe have to do with your question concerning the verbs in Ephesians 3:17? Nothing
All you wanted to do was to disparage me. So you edited one of my statements and disregarded the rest.

Why does the NIV translate "dia" as "because of" when used with a genitive? See 1 Thessalonians 3:7. Perhaps the grammar is not decisive.

And remember folks, all this effort to change the subject to me is for the purpose of obfuscation. The truth is that "through faith" or "by way of faith" or "by means of faith" teaches God uses our faith as credited by Him, to bestow His salvation blessings. OTOH, Calvinism claims all these are bestowed "not through faith." Keep your eye on the ball...

Seriously, I have no idea what to think here. Especially after the last response by TA

truly incredible

 

[The Archangel]

I have explained this a number of times. You continue to ignore my viewpoint. Nuff said...

I have in no way "ignored" your viewpoint; I have shown how it is flawed. Every time you repeat your error, you dig your hole deeper.

Have you explained what "through faith" means? Nope.

One does not have to explain what "through faith" means to demonstrate that your explanation (in most cases) is not possible by the rules of grammar

Did I say "dia" means "God crediting our faith as righteousness?" Nope so more obfuscation

Yes, you did.

Here:

The Greek preposition "dia" has the literal positional meaning of passing through something, and the instrumentality meaning of by means of, because of or by reason of. In the Greek construction of "through faith" the word "faith" is in the genitive case and according to the LEXICON I quoted, "dia" thus conveys the meaning of "by means of" or "because of."

And here:

Galatians 3:14 (NASB)
in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

If we unpack this verse:
1) Only when placed into Christ do Gentiles (and Jews) receive the promised indwelling of the Spirit.
2) Only when God credits their faith as righteousness does God place individuals into Christ.

Thus, once again, through faith indicates our faith if credited by God, provides entry into the blessings of salvation.

Words have meaning so pay no attention to liberals who redefine words to rewrite the gospel.

And here:

The Greek preposition "dia" has the literal positional meaning of passing through something, and the instrumentality meaning of by means of, because of or by reason of. In the Greek construction of "through faith" the word "faith in in the genitive case and according to the LEXICON I quoted, "dia" thus conveys the meaning of "by means of" or "because of."

I am agreeing with the grammar, "dia" working with a genitive means "by means of" and indicates the path through which the action is accomplished.

No, you are not agreeing with the grammar. It can carry the idea of means, but it does not lexically carry that meaning. Again, as Wallace states, δια + genitive can mean: Agency (by, through), Means (through), Spatial (through), or Temporal (through(out), during). It does not--by definition--carry the idea of means.

The faith path has 4 stepping stones, (1) hearing the gospel, (2) heeding the gospel, (3) placing their full faith and devotion upon Christ and (4) God crediting our faith as righteousness. We receive the benefit of God's action because of those 4 stepping stones. If you remove any one, we do not receive the benefit.

I understand you think this. But, you basing this Van-ian Theology on δια πιστεως on the grammar you, by your own admission, "know nothing of" is grammatically unsupportable. You are in error here.

The Archangel

 

[Marooncat79]

This much, we agree on.

The problem then is that you are saying things about prepositions, etc. that you--by your own admission--"know nothing of." All the while, you're trying to tell my that the grammar supports your position and not mine... You have no basis, no acumen, by which to evaluate my statements or even you own. What is worse, you're arrogantly confident in your own ignorance, insisting that you are correct.

You know, you have been given a great gift here on Baptist Board. There are people who have actually studied these things--including Greek--at high levels. It could be a free education (of sorts) for you. But instead of listening as you should, you insist on speaking on that which you "know nothing of." You "know[ing] nothing of" Greek is not new revelation. It has been painfully obvious to anyone who has formally studied it. You're squandering a great opportunity to learn from some who know volumes more than you. What a pity you can't or won't learn.

The Archangel

Very gracious answer

Unfortunately, he does not realize how bad he looks. You actually tried to help him and give him an out.
Oh well, some people you just can’t help in life

 

[The Archangel]

All you wanted to do was to disparage me. So you edited one of my statements and disregarded the rest.

Point of fact... I did not "edit" one of your statements; I quoted it. There is a huge difference. I quoted your words; I did not leave words out of the quote that resulted in any change of meaning. Your simple sentence "I know nothing of Greek grammar" was preserved just fine.

Why does the NIV translate "dia" as "because of" when used with a genitive? See 1 Thessalonians 3:7. Perhaps the grammar is not decisive..

1 Thessalonians 3:17 includes the personal pronoun διὰ ὑμῶν τῆς πίστεως (emphasis mine). The διὰ τῆς πίστεως construction or the διὰ πίστεως construction included in Ephesians 3:17, for example, does not have the personal pronoun ὑμῶν. The idea of "this happens because of your faith" is not inherent in the διὰ πίστεως construction. To convey the "your faith" meaning would require the accusative form of πιστις or the personal pronoun.

The Archangel

 

[Van]

SNIP

1 Thessalonians 3:17 includes the personal pronoun διὰ ὑμῶν τῆς πίστεως (emphasis mine). The διὰ τῆς πίστεως construction or the διὰ πίστεως construction included in Ephesians 3:17, for example, does not have the personal pronoun ὑμῶν. The idea of "this happens because of your faith" is not inherent in the διὰ πίστεως construction. To convey the "your faith" meaning would require the accusative form of πιστις or the personal pronoun.

The Archangel

LOL...
1) Remember I was disparaged for misstating my intended message? 1 Thessalonians 3:17 is a misstating of 1 Thessalonians 3:7. Nuff said.
2) Read Philippians 2:17, Colossians 2:5, 1 Thessalonians 3:2, 1 Thessalonians 3:10, James 1:3, 1 Peter 1:7 and 1 Peter 1:9. They all convey the idea of something occurring concerning the faith of the audience, i.e. the letter refers to "your faith."

 

[The Archangel]

LOL...
1) Remember I was disparaged for misstating my intended message? 1 Thessalonians 3:17 is a misstating of 1 Thessalonians 3:7. Nuff said.

??????

2) Read Philippians 2:17, Colossians 2:5, 1 Thessalonians 3:2, 1 Thessalonians 3:10, James 1:3, 1 Peter 1:7 and 1 Peter 1:9. They all convey the idea of something occurring concerning the faith of the audience, i.e. the letter refers to "your faith."

They convey the idea of "your faith" because of the pronoun. Ι don't think any of the examples you cite above are διὰ πίστεως. They might have a πίστεως, but it's not part of the διὰ πίστεως construction. Also the "Your faith" construction (that including the pronoun) is not at all the same as the διὰ πίστεως construction (lacking the pronoun). It is not the same. The preposition--διὰ in this case--changes a lot of stuff about the noun.

You're arguing apples and oranges.

The Archangel