Featured Words have Meaning

You've said: "Thus when you see "through faith" the idea is it is the means by which God chooses the individual to receive the contextual benefit." This is meaning you're attaching to διὰ πίστεως. It is not the meaning that is inherent in the phrase.

At some point you should realize that the rules of Greek grammar do not bow to your wishes. But, considering your participation on this board in the past and now, that ship has apparently sailed.

The Archangel

 

Except that you are arguing for a genitive to be treated as an accusative. "Because of" is how δια works with the accusative, not the genitive. It isn't a question of intelligence to argue for what the usage is. It may, however, be an issue of intelligence to argue against the rules of usage.

Again, you're assuming meaning that simply isn't there. I understand you want δια to mean "God crediting our faith as righteousness" but the grammar doesn't support your conclusion. Fighting the grammar, as you are, rarely turns out well. You would fair almost as well arguing that 2+2=5. So, good luck with that.

The Archangel

 

No one I know is saying "not through," so you can stop with the false charges. What I am saying is that "through" does not mean "because of," as you are insisting it does. Why am I arguing this? Because the examples you cite are in the genitive, and "because of" more related to the accusative. That's all.

This is an assumption--and a reading-into--on your part. The translation is "Through faith." But, through faith as opposed to what? In Galatians 3 the "opposed to" is probably the Law. But to assign "Because of," meaning "God crediting our faith as righteousness" is to do violence to the text. You're wanting a meaning that is not supported by lexical or grammatical rules, and you're trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

You're never going to get it right if you insist on breaking the grammar. Also, do more than just looking at a lexicon.

The Archangel

 

Why don't you try telling me where the verb in the passage is....

The Archangel

 

This much, we agree on.

The problem then is that you are saying things about prepositions, etc. that you--by your own admission--"know nothing of." All the while, you're trying to tell my that the grammar supports your position and not mine... You have no basis, no acumen, by which to evaluate my statements or even you own. What is worse, you're arrogantly confident in your own ignorance, insisting that you are correct.

You know, you have been given a great gift here on Baptist Board. There are people who have actually studied these things--including Greek--at high levels. It could be a free education (of sorts) for you. But instead of listening as you should, you insist on speaking on that which you "know nothing of." You "know[ing] nothing of" Greek is not new revelation. It has been painfully obvious to anyone who has formally studied it. You're squandering a great opportunity to learn from some who know volumes more than you. What a pity you can't or won't learn.

The Archangel

 

::mmm popcorn

Seriously, I have no idea what to think here. Especially after the last response by TA

truly incredible

 

I have in no way "ignored" your viewpoint; I have shown how it is flawed. Every time you repeat your error, you dig your hole deeper.

One does not have to explain what "through faith" means to demonstrate that your explanation (in most cases) is not possible by the rules of grammar

Yes, you did.

Here:

And here:

And here:

No, you are not agreeing with the grammar. It can carry the idea of means, but it does not lexically carry that meaning. Again, as Wallace states, δια + genitive can mean: Agency (by, through), Means (through), Spatial (through), or Temporal (through(out), during). It does not--by definition--carry the idea of means.

I understand you think this. But, you basing this Van-ian Theology on δια πιστεως on the grammar you, by your own admission, "know nothing of" is grammatically unsupportable. You are in error here.

The Archangel

 

Very gracious answer

Unfortunately, he does not realize how bad he looks. You actually tried to help him and give him an out.
Oh well, some people you just can’t help in life

 

Point of fact... I did not "edit" one of your statements; I quoted it. There is a huge difference. I quoted your words; I did not leave words out of the quote that resulted in any change of meaning. Your simple sentence "I know nothing of Greek grammar" was preserved just fine.

1 Thessalonians 3:17 includes the personal pronoun διὰ ὑμῶν τῆς πίστεως (emphasis mine). The διὰ τῆς πίστεως construction or the διὰ πίστεως construction included in Ephesians 3:17, for example, does not have the personal pronoun ὑμῶν. The idea of "this happens because of your faith" is not inherent in the διὰ πίστεως construction. To convey the "your faith" meaning would require the accusative form of πιστις or the personal pronoun.

The Archangel

 

??????

They convey the idea of "your faith" because of the pronoun. Ι don't think any of the examples you cite above are διὰ πίστεως. They might have a πίστεως, but it's not part of the διὰ πίστεως construction. Also the "Your faith" construction (that including the pronoun) is not at all the same as the διὰ πίστεως construction (lacking the pronoun). It is not the same. The preposition--διὰ in this case--changes a lot of stuff about the noun.

You're arguing apples and oranges.

The Archangel