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Featured Words have Meaning

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Oct 23, 2021.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Just to restate the obvious, "dia pistis" (usually translated as "through faith" can mean "by means of" or "by way of."
    The claim that if "faith" is in the genitive form, dia cannot mean "by means of" or "by way of" is utterly false.

    Here is a snippet from "Thayer's:"
    of the instrument used to accomplish a thing, or of the instrumental cause in the stricter sense: — with the genitive of person by the service, the intervention of, anyone; with the genitive of thing, by means of, with the help of, anything;​

    Thus "through faith" can be translated "by means of faith" or "by way of faith" when "faith" is in the genitive form.

    Did anyone say "through faith" always means "through your faith?" Nope so pay no attention to all these strawman claims. When you see "through faith" and contextually the "faith" refers to a human person's faith, then the interpretive meaning is "through" "or by way of" your credited faith." Nothing in the grammar precludes this view. Now in the case where the "faith" belongs to Christ, then "through the faithfulness of Christ" is the idea.

    In summary, our faith in view, then "dia" means "by way of" and if Christ"s faithfulness is in view, then dia means "by means of." So simple a child could understand it.
     
    #121 Van, Nov 25, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
  2. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Wrong.

    And since you're into restating things. I can do the same:

    While we're on the topic of prepositions and meaning.... Daniel Wallace has a really good statement on the so-called "Root Fallacy" and he applies it to the use of prepositions.

    As lexicographers have long noted, the root meaning of a word is not necessarily an accurate guide to the meaning of the word in later literature. The same is true of morpho-syntactic categories: One ought not look for some kind of invariant meaning that is always present with the preposition. The meaning of words changes in time. Further a word has a field of meaning rather than a point. Such is no less true for prepositions than for other words. (Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, 363, emphasis original).​

    Clearly, finding and insisting on a dictionary definition of δια, or any preposition, is not how any real kind of study is done. Many factors go into determining meaning--the author's usage, the context, etc.

    Since the current discussion relates to δια, here is the range (or "field") of meaning that Wallace gives for δια:

    Basic uses (with genitive and accusative)
    1. With genitive
    a. Agency: by, through
    b. Means: through
    c. Spatial: through
    d. Temporal: through(out), during

    2. With accusative
    a. Cause: because of, on account of, for the sake of
    b. Spatial (rare): through

    (Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, 368-9)​

    The Archangel
     
    #122 The Archangel, Nov 25, 2021
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  3. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    And... While we're into restating, I'll restate the obvious--by quoting you.

    So quoting anyone that you don't have the acumen to interact with is just silly and proves your incompetence further.

    The Archangel
     
    #123 The Archangel, Nov 25, 2021
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  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Just to restate the obvious, "dia pistis" (usually translated as "through faith" can mean "by means of" or "by way of" faith.
    The claim that if "faith" is in the genitive form, dia cannot mean "by means of" or "by way of" is utterly false.

    Here is a snippet from "Thayer's:"
    of the instrument used to accomplish a thing, or of the instrumental cause in the stricter sense: — with the genitive of person by the service, the intervention of, anyone; with the genitive of thing, by means of, with the help of, anything;​

    Thus "through faith" can be translated "by means of faith" or "by way of faith" when "faith" is in the genitive form.

    Did anyone say "through faith" always means "through your faith?" Nope so pay no attention to all these strawman claims. When you see "through faith" and contextually the "faith" refers to a human person's faith, then the interpretive meaning is "through" "or by way of" your credited faith." Nothing in the grammar precludes this view. Now in the case where the "faith" belongs to Christ, then "through the faithfulness of Christ" is the idea.

    In summary, our faith in view, then "dia" means "by way of" and if Christ"s faithfulness is in view, then dia means "by means of." So simple a child could understand it.
     
    #124 Van, Nov 25, 2021
  5. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    You should realize that "Genitive of a person" and "Genitive of a thing" are, how shall I say, different shades of the genitive. They are not lexical, but contextual. And, most importantly, not every genitive can be taken as a genitive of a person or a genitive of a thing.

    Again, your lack of knowledge of Greek is becoming more and more self-evident.

    The Archangel
     
    #125 The Archangel, Nov 25, 2021
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The infantile "mind reader" claims the idea that a "genitive of a person" and the "genitive of a thing" differ cannot be easily understood. Through faith is a genitive of a thing - faith! Did anyone say their are only two genitives? Nope so yet another strawman to obfuscate.

    Remember, our salvation is by way of faith. That is the biblical truth being hidden by the ploy of subject change to my knowledge of Greek grammar.
     
    #126 Van, Nov 25, 2021
  7. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    You should read further in Thayer's:

    B. with the accusative (Winer's Grammar, 398f (372f)).

    I. of place; through; often so in the Greek poets, once in the N. T. according to L T Tr WH viz. Luke 17:11 διά μέσον Σαμαρείας, for R G διά μέσου Σαμαρείας (but see μέσος, 2).

    II. of the Ground or Reason on account of which anything is or is not done; by reason of because of (German aus Grund).

    1. of the reason for which a thing is done, or of the efficient reason, when for greater perspicuity it may be rendered by (cf. Kühner, § 434 Anm.);
    ​
    What you want as meaning is found in δια plus the accusative.

    The Archangel
     
    #127 The Archangel, Nov 25, 2021
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  8. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    You can't really cite something ("my knowledge of Greek grammar") that--by your own admission--does not exist in order to make an argument.

    I never mentioned "only" two genitives. So paint that strawman on yourself.

    The Archangel
     
    #128 The Archangel, Nov 25, 2021
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  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another "Pop" post. Not on topic, but a pathetic effort to change the subject. This idiotic argument is fallacious, foolish, phony.
     
    #129 Van, Nov 25, 2021
  10. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Nope. Those are your own words.

    The Archangel
     
    #130 The Archangel, Nov 25, 2021
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  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Just to restate the obvious, "dia pistis" (usually translated as "through faith" can mean "by means of" or "by way of" faith.
    The claim that if "faith" is in the genitive form, dia cannot mean "by means of" or "by way of" is utterly false.

    Here is a snippet from "Thayer's:"
    of the instrument used to accomplish a thing, or of the instrumental cause in the stricter sense: — with the genitive of person by the service, the intervention of, anyone; with the genitive of thing, by means of, with the help of, anything;​

    Thus "through faith" can be translated "by means of faith" or "by way of faith" when "faith" is in the genitive form.

    Did anyone say "through faith" always means "through your faith?" Nope so pay no attention to all these strawman claims. When you see "through faith" and contextually the "faith" refers to a human person's faith, then the interpretive meaning is "through" "or by way of" your credited faith." Nothing in the grammar precludes this view. Now in the case where the "faith" belongs to Christ, then "through the faithfulness of Christ" is the idea.

    In summary, our faith in view, then "dia" means "by way of" and if Christ"s faithfulness is in view, then dia means "by means of." So simple a child could understand it.
     
    #131 Van, Nov 25, 2021
  12. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    No matter how many times you repeat yourself, it still isn't going to be true and it isn't going to change the nature of Greek grammar. So, you're simply boxing the wind. [Snip]

    The Archangel
     
    #132 The Archangel, Nov 25, 2021
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  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    2 Timothy 3:15 (NASB)
    and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    First question, is a person's faith or Christ's faithfulness in view? A person's faith! So the interpretive translation would read:
    and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation by way of your credited faith which is in Christ Jesus.​
     
    #133 Van, Nov 25, 2021
  14. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Ummmm.... No. "By way of your credited faith" is something you're reading into the text. It really is quite that simple.

    The Archangel
     
    #134 The Archangel, Nov 25, 2021
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  15. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Six hour warning -

    This thread will be closed no sooner than 630 PM EST / 330 pm PST
     
    #135 Salty, Nov 25, 2021
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here is the list of seven examples where "faith" refers to the faithfulness of Christ.

    Galatians 2:16 (NET)
    yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

    Galatians 2:20 (NET)
    I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So the life I now live in the body, I live because of the faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

    Romans 3:22 (NET)
    namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction,

    Romans 3:26 (NET)
    This was also to demonstrate his righteousness in the present time, so that he would be just and the justifier of the one who lives because of Jesus' faithfulness.

    Galatians 3:22 (NET)
    But the scripture imprisoned everything and everyone under sin so that the promise could be given - because of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ - to those who believe.

    Ephesians 3:12 (NET)
    in whom we have boldness and confident access to God because of* Christ's faithfulness.
    * here "dia" is translated as "because of" with a genitive "faith"​

    Philippians 3:9 (NET)
    and be found in him, not because I have my own righteousness derived from the law, but because I have the righteousness that comes by way of** Christ's faithfulness - a righteousness from God that is in fact based on Christ's faithfulness.
    ** here "dia" is translated as "by way of" but my view is "by means of" better conveys the idea. ​

    In three of the above examples (shown by the blue and green "because of" color) either "en" or "ek" Greek prepositions are used rather than "dia."

    ​
     
    #136 Van, Nov 25, 2021
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  17. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    So?

    The Archangel


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    #137 The Archangel, Nov 25, 2021
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  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Just to restate the obvious, "dia pistis" (usually translated as "through faith" can mean "by means of" or "by way of" faith.
    The claim that if "faith" is in the genitive form, dia cannot mean "by means of" or "by way of" is utterly false.

    Here is a snippet from "Thayer's:"
    of the instrument used to accomplish a thing, or of the instrumental cause in the stricter sense: — with the genitive of person by the service, the intervention of, anyone; with the genitive of thing, by means of, with the help of, anything;​

    Thus "through faith" can be translated "by means of faith" or "by way of faith" when "faith" is in the genitive form.

    Did anyone say "through faith" always means "through your faith?" Nope so pay no attention to all these strawman claims. When you see "through faith" and contextually the "faith" refers to a human person's faith, then the interpretive meaning is "through" "or by way of" your credited faith." Nothing in the grammar precludes this view. Now in the case where the "faith" belongs to Christ, then "through the faithfulness of Christ" is the idea.

    In summary, our faith in view, then "dia" means "by way of" and if Christ"s faithfulness is in view, then dia means "by means of."
     
    #138 Van, Nov 25, 2021
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Many translations have "faith in him" rather than "Christ's faithfulness at the end of Ephesians 3:12. If we decode the verse via interpretation we get:

    Within our Lord, we have the boldness and access with confidence by means of Christ's faithfulness.

    I can recall approaching my Dad, after I had failed to accomplish some task he had given me. I did not approach him with confidence or boldness, but with pathetic excuses. I might have sunk back and avoided my Dad. But I did not. Why, because I knew I would always be his son, and he wanted me to succeed. God had forgiven him, and he was going to treat his son as his Dad treated him.
     
    #139 Van, Nov 25, 2021
  20. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    The only obvious thing that is being restated is:



    I'm still trying to figure out how your admission of "I know nothing of Greek grammar" with "In summary, our faith in view, then "dia" means "by way of" and if Christ"s faithfulness is in view, then dia means "by means of." goes together.

    If you don't know Greek grammar, which--by your own admission you don't--how can you say what "dia" means? Why should or would anyone agree with you when--by your own admission--you are a blind guide???

    The Archangel
     
    #140 The Archangel, Nov 25, 2021
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