Featured Words have Meaning

When you say we Cals are liberals, you mean likes of Spurgeon, Sproul, Calvin were such in regards to theology and the Bible?

 

Van just needs to trust in scholarly references and sources, as his own understanding is lacking in some regards here!

 

And THAT is exactly what you do repeatedly Van. You focus on molehills and deem translations as "deeply flawed" when the overwhelming majority of translators and Bible scholars go against your dictums. Face your mirror.

 

Did you not find post #77 helpful?

 

The meaning doesn't always include "Instrumentality." Also, it seems your only knowledge of the grammar of δια is coming out of Strongs... which is the equivalent of bringing bubble gum to a gun fight.

You do realize that you try to "lecture" me on δια πιστις while quoting 1 Thessalonians 3:7--which is not an example of a simple δια πιστις phrase--would be laughably funny, if it wasn't so horribly sad.

Typos? You think your issues are typos?! Seriously? "Your" in stead of "you're" might be a typo. "Too" instead of "to" might be a typo. "Grease" instead of "grace" might be a typo. What you're posting is error, not typos.

The Archangel

 

For clarification... [#1] in your above quote is a typo. Everything else you've posted above is error.

Repeating the same thing over and over again is not going to make it magically true. I understand you sincerely hold this belief, but you are sincerely wrong in that belief. What is more, your constant repetition of the same error shows an almost-absolute inability to engage with anyone else, especially someone who knows what they're talking about.

The Archangel

 

False. Δια can mean "passing through" only when governing the genitive. When it governs the accusative, it means something different. There is no "literal" meaning of a preposition by the time we get to the Koine period. A.T. Robertson's comments on δια are helpful here:

Passing Between’ or ‘Through.’ The idea of interval between leads naturally to that of passing between two objects or parts of objects. ‘Through’ is thus not the original meaning of διά, but is a very common one. The case is usually the genitive...

A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research (Logos Bible Software, 2006), 581.
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Any student of Greek would know that the preposition occurs with its object and governs the meaning of its object, and the object (the noun) influences whether the preposition means something in terms of agency or instrumentality (to name a few). Robertson states:

The scientific method of studying the Greek preposition is to begin with the case-idea, add the meaning of the preposition itself, then consider the context. The result of this combination will be what one translates into English, for instance, but he translates the total idea, not the mere preposition. It is puerile to explain the Greek prepositions merely by the English or German rendering of the whole. (Ibid., 568)
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So, your idea of holding on to a set, one-way interpretation of δια is quite wrong.

False. Δια conveys the meaning of "because of" when governing the accusative, not the genitive. Again, we see Robertson: "With the accusative διά comes to be used with the idea of ‘because of,’ ‘for the sake of,’ ‘on account of.’" (Ibid., 583).

Since you have been saying "... God credited our righteousness as faith" for quite a few years on this board, it is quite clear you are trying to insert this meaning into the phrase "through faith." So, "To spell it out..." you are wrong.

The Archangel

 

While we're on the topic of prepositions and meaning.... Daniel Wallace has a really good statement on the so-called "Root Fallacy" and he applies it to the use of prepositions.

As lexicographers have long noted, the root meaning of a word is not necessarily an accurate guide to the meaning of the word in later literature. The same is true of morpho-syntactic categories: One ought not look for some kind of invariant meaning that is always present with the preposition. The meaning of words changes in time. Further a word has a field of meaning rather than a point. Such is no less true for prepositions than for other words. (Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, 363, emphasis original).
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Clearly, finding and insisting on a dictionary definition of δια, or any preposition, is not how any real kind of study is done. Many factors go into determining meaning--the author's usage, the context, etc.

Since the current discussion relates to δια, here is the range (or "field") of meaning that Wallace gives for δια:

Basic uses (with genitive and accusative)
1. With genitive

a. Agency: by, through
b. Means: through
c. Spatial: through
d. Temporal: through(out), during
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2. With accusative

a. Cause: because of, on account of, for the sake of
b. Spatial (rare): through

(Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, 368-9)
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In determining the meaning of the preposition as it relates to the phrase, the verb must also be considered... But that would be a bridge too far for this discussion, I fear.

The Archangel

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I want to thank archangel, Martin, JofJ, and the rest of you who regularly review my posts for accuracy and holding me accountable. In my flesh, I may desire to “push back,” but must always recognize I am growing less intellectually every day.

This is why whenever I do any original language work on the BB, I call for others who are now far closer to the languages to verify and correct any error I make.

Does it not make for sound work to have that work verified by others?

I would hate to stand before my Lord and answer why I so inappropriately rendered His dictation to the writers.

 

Nothing in my statement is false. And, in what way could Robertson possibly be supporting your view?! You've done the grammatical equivalent of arguing 2+2=5 while suggesting that Archimedes supports your calculations. You could not be more wrong if you tried.

The Archangel

 

Yes, it's a prepositional phrase. But, "because of" could not have been chosen because "faith" is in the genitive, not the accusative. Again, there is no "formula" as to what δια means here. The grammarians--especially the ones I've posted--are abundantly clear here.

You really should not try to dig past the bottom of the hole you've already dug.

The Archangel

 

It's interesting.... the Galatians passages are not διὰ πίστεως, but are instead
διὰ τῆς πίστεως. I'll bet you can't really tell me what τῆς is or why Paul includes it here.

By the way... You should understand that disagreeing with your "grammatical thoughts" isn't attacking biblical truth. You have sought to move the goalposts of the argument. You started off by saying διὰ plus the genitive of πιστις was formulaic and meant what you wanted it to mean. That is clearly false. Now, you're claiming that any disagreement with your non-existent Greek skills is an attack on you. This is absurd. There are places where διὰ πίστεως can have an idea of "means" attached to it, but it isn't every case. Much more than dictionary definitions go into such things.

In no way do I, as a reformed theologian, think that man doesn't have to exercise faith to be saved. I am not a hyper-calvinist. But, in no way do I think saving faith is inherent in any human being apart from the work of the Holy Spirit and God's sovereign choice.

The Archangel