Words have Meaning

[Yeshua1]

Liberals attack truth by redefining the meaning of words. Many times in scripture the statement is made that salvation is "through faith." Often the Greek preposition "dia" which means "by means of" or "by reason of" when used to indicate instrumentality, is nullified by liberal rather than literal interpretation.

If individuals were chosen for salvation unconditionally, then salvation would not be "through faith."

Thus when you see "through faith" (or by faith) the liberals claim the meaning is by reason of the gifted and instilled faith due to election before creation via irresistible grace.

However that gross addition to scripture, based purely on the speculation of people, is not how scripture actually reads.

And this repeated rewriting of scripture violates at least two Baptist distinctives, in that the view does not adhere to a literal interpretation, and that individual soul liberty to believe or not in Christ is denied.

Here are some of the verses that liberals rewrite via interpretation:
Romans 3:25
Galatians 3:14
Galatians 3:26
Ephesians 2:8
Ephesians 3:12
Colossians 2:12
2 Timothy 3:15

In these verses the preposition (dia) is used to refer to the means or instrument by which the action is effected, thus in Romans 3:25, Christ is displayed as the means of reconciliation through faith. If a person's faith is not credited by God as righteousness, God will not utilize Christ as the means of their reconciliation. So simple a child can understand it.

When you say we Cals are liberals, you mean likes of Spurgeon, Sproul, Calvin were such in regards to theology and the Bible?

 

[Yeshua1]

Pot, kettle, . . . never mind.



What you've posted here are not facts. What you've posted here are at best half-truths and at worst full error.



Again.... the meaning of δια changes depending on whether it's coupled with a genitive or an accusative. Even so, there is a range of meaning for each situation. There are several options for each case. Δια is irreducible to the level you're trying to take it to; it doesn't simply bear a lexical meaning. To determine the meaning of δια requires the examination of the grammar, usage, and context in each case.

You're playing with things you simply do not understand.

The Archangel

Van just needs to trust in scholarly references and sources, as his own understanding is lacking in some regards here!

 

[Van]

The Greek preposition "dia" has the literal positional meaning of passing through something, and the instrumentality meaning of by means of, because of or by reason of. In the Greek construction of "through faith" the word "faith" is in the genitive case and according to the LEXICON I quoted, "dia" thus conveys the meaning of "by means of" or "because of."

To spell it out for the deniers of the obvious, we are saved by grace through faith, with the meaning that we are saved because God credited our faith as righteousness. Now running from this obvious truth,we getl off topic false charges non-stop. .

And note folks all the posts are hurling false claims, rather than addressing the topic of the thread. Such posts are folks waving the white flag of surrender, as they know "through faith" means "because of our faith as credited by God." Conditional Election anyone.

 

[Van]

When you say we Cals are liberals, you mean likes of Spurgeon, Sproul, Calvin were such in regards to theology and the Bible?

Through faith means "because of our faith as credited by God." Only liberals rewrite "through faith" to mean "not through faith."

 

[Van]

SNIP

There are 668 occurrences of δια in the New Testament. δια plus πίστις (genitive singular) occurs 64 times. That all of them mean exactly the same thing is a bridge too far; that you think they all mean the same thing is laughable. Louw and Nida show what δια plus the genitive can mean. This is what we call "range of meaning." δια has a much larger range than you are allowing for.

a by (agent)
b by (instrument)
c through (means)
d on behalf of (benefaction)
e because of (reason participant)
f on account of (reason)
g through (extension)
h along (extension)
i during (time)
j throughout (time)

Source: Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 57.
​

You can't simply make the text say or mean what you want it to mean and then attempt to slander everyone who disagrees with you.

The Archangel

I was addressing the instrumentality meaning of "dia" (G1223) when used in the phrase "dia pistis." To suggest otherwise is to slander me. While your post "suggests" we can find "dia pistis" 64 times in the NT, what you actually seem to be saying is there are 64 verses that contain "dia" and "pistis" but not the prepositional phrase "dia pistis." I think the number of prepositional "through or by faith"phrases is about 19, including 1 Thessalonians 3:7 (through your faith).

Just because someone makes an insignificant error, such as a typo, does not indicate what is being said is invalid. Pouring significance into nit picks marks such observations as irrelevant.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Pouring significance into nit picks marks such observations as irrelevant.

And THAT is exactly what you do repeatedly Van. You focus on molehills and deem translations as "deeply flawed" when the overwhelming majority of translators and Bible scholars go against your dictums. Face your mirror.

 

[agedman]

The Greek preposition "dia" has the literal positional meaning of passing through something, and the instrumentality meaning of by means of, because of or by reason of. In the Greek construction of "through faith" the word "faith" is in the genitive case and according to the LEXICON I quoted, "dia" thus conveys the meaning of "by means of" or "because of."

To spell it out for the deniers of the obvious, we are saved by grace through faith, with the meaning that we are saved because God credited our faith as righteousness. Now running from this obvious truth,we getl off topic false charges non-stop. .

And note folks all the posts are hurling false claims, rather than addressing the topic of the thread. Such posts are folks waving the white flag of surrender, as they know "through faith" means "because of our faith as credited by God." Conditional Election anyone.

Did you not find post #77 helpful?

 

[The Archangel]

I was addressing the instrumentality meaning of "dia" (G1223) when used in the phrase "dia pistis." To suggest otherwise is to slander me.

The meaning doesn't always include "Instrumentality." Also, it seems your only knowledge of the grammar of δια is coming out of Strongs... which is the equivalent of bringing bubble gum to a gun fight.

While your post "suggests" we can find "dia pistis" 64 times in the NT, what you actually seem to be saying is there are 64 verses that contain "dia" and "pistis" but not the prepositional phrase "dia pistis." I think the number of prepositional "through or by faith"phrases is about 19, including 1 Thessalonians 3:7 (through your faith)..

You do realize that you try to "lecture" me on δια πιστις while quoting 1 Thessalonians 3:7--which is not an example of a simple δια πιστις phrase--would be laughably funny, if it wasn't so horribly sad.

Just because someone makes an insignificant error, such as a typo, does not indicate what is being said is invalid. Pouring significance into nit picks marks such observations as irrelevant.

Typos? You think your issues are typos?! Seriously? "Your" in stead of "you're" might be a typo. "Too" instead of "to" might be a typo. "Grease" instead of "grace" might be a typo. What you're posting is error, not typos.

The Archangel

 

[Van]

The meaning doesn't always include "Instrumentality." Also, it seems your only knowledge of the grammar of δια is coming out of Strongs... which is the equivalent of bringing bubble gum to a gun fight.

You do realize that you try to "lecture" me on δια πιστις while quoting 1 Thessalonians 3:7--which is not an example of a simple δια πιστις phrase--would be laughably funny, if it wasn't so horribly sad.

Typos? You think your issues are typos?! Seriously? "Your" in stead of "you're" might be a typo. "Too" instead of "to" might be a typo. "Grease" instead of "grace" might be a typo. What you're posting is error, not typos.

The Archangel

It seems this poster claims to be a mind reader, posting that my only knowledge concerning "dia" comes from Strongs lexicon. Go figure.

Next the claim that 1 Thessalonians 3:7 is not a prepositional phrase with "pistis" as the object. Hogwash I identified the phrase as an inclusion.

Here is the quote where this poster attempted to make a mountain out of a typo.

I think you meant to say "What an incredibly ridiculous response." "Incredulity" is not the right word for this intended insult. And, since you started a thread entitled "Words have meaning," you should certainly know how to use them properly.

The Greek preposition "dia" has the literal positional meaning of passing through something, and the instrumentality meaning of by means of, because of or by reason of. In the Greek construction of "through faith" the word "faith" is in the genitive case and according to the LEXICON I quoted, "dia" thus conveys the meaning of "by means of" or "because of."

To spell it out for the deniers of the obvious, we are saved by grace through faith, with the meaning that we are saved because God credited our faith as righteousness. Now running from this obvious truth,we getl off topic false charges non-stop. .

 

[The Archangel]

The Greek preposition "dia" has the literal positional meaning of passing through something, and the instrumentality meaning of by means of, because of or by reason of. In the Greek construction of "through faith" the word "faith" is in the genitive case and according to the LEXICON I quoted, "dia" thus conveys the meaning of "by means of" or "because of."

To spell it out for the deniers of the obvious, we are saved by grace through faith, with the meaning that we are saved because God credited our faith as righteousness. Now running from this obvious truth,we getl [#1] off topic false charges non-stop. .

For clarification... [#1] in your above quote is a typo. Everything else you've posted above is error.

Repeating the same thing over and over again is not going to make it magically true. I understand you sincerely hold this belief, but you are sincerely wrong in that belief. What is more, your constant repetition of the same error shows an almost-absolute inability to engage with anyone else, especially someone who knows what they're talking about.

The Archangel

 

[Van]

For clarification... [#1] in your above quote is a typo. Everything else you've posted above is error.

Repeating the same thing over and over again is not going to make it magically true. I understand you sincerely hold this belief, but you are sincerely wrong in that belief. What is more, your constant repetition of the same error shows an almost-absolute inability to engage with anyone else, especially someone who knows what they're talking about.

The Archangel

Liberals deny they are liberals. Calvinists deny biblical truth, claiming everything is error.

The Greek preposition "dia" has the literal positional meaning of passing through something, and the instrumentality meaning of by means of, because of or by reason of. In the Greek construction of "through faith" the word "faith" is in the genitive case and according to the LEXICON I quoted, "dia" thus conveys the meaning of "by means of" or "because of."

To spell it out for the deniers of the obvious, we are saved by grace through faith, with the meaning that we are saved because God credited our faith as righteousness. Now running from this obvious truth,we get off topic false charges non-stop. .

How many times in the NT does the prepositional phrase "dia pistis" appear? About 64 or about 19? Go figure

 

[The Archangel]

The Greek preposition "dia" has the literal positional meaning of passing through something, and the instrumentality meaning of by means of, because of or by reason of.

False. Δια can mean "passing through" only when governing the genitive. When it governs the accusative, it means something different. There is no "literal" meaning of a preposition by the time we get to the Koine period. A.T. Robertson's comments on δια are helpful here:

Passing Between’ or ‘Through.’ The idea of interval between leads naturally to that of passing between two objects or parts of objects. ‘Through’ is thus not the original meaning of διά, but is a very common one. The case is usually the genitive...

A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research (Logos Bible Software, 2006), 581.
​

Any student of Greek would know that the preposition occurs with its object and governs the meaning of its object, and the object (the noun) influences whether the preposition means something in terms of agency or instrumentality (to name a few). Robertson states:

The scientific method of studying the Greek preposition is to begin with the case-idea, add the meaning of the preposition itself, then consider the context. The result of this combination will be what one translates into English, for instance, but he translates the total idea, not the mere preposition. It is puerile to explain the Greek prepositions merely by the English or German rendering of the whole. (Ibid., 568)
​

So, your idea of holding on to a set, one-way interpretation of δια is quite wrong.

In the Greek construction of "through faith" the word "faith" is in the genitive case and according to the LEXICON I quoted, "dia" thus conveys the meaning of "by means of" or "because of."

False. Δια conveys the meaning of "because of" when governing the accusative, not the genitive. Again, we see Robertson: "With the accusative διά comes to be used with the idea of ‘because of,’ ‘for the sake of,’ ‘on account of.’" (Ibid., 583).

To spell it out for the deniers of the obvious, we are saved by grace through faith, with the meaning that we are saved because God credited our faith as righteousness. Now running from this obvious truth,we get off topic false charges non-stop. .

Since you have been saying "... God credited our righteousness as faith" for quite a few years on this board, it is quite clear you are trying to insert this meaning into the phrase "through faith." So, "To spell it out..." you are wrong.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

While we're on the topic of prepositions and meaning.... Daniel Wallace has a really good statement on the so-called "Root Fallacy" and he applies it to the use of prepositions.

As lexicographers have long noted, the root meaning of a word is not necessarily an accurate guide to the meaning of the word in later literature. The same is true of morpho-syntactic categories: One ought not look for some kind of invariant meaning that is always present with the preposition. The meaning of words changes in time. Further a word has a field of meaning rather than a point. Such is no less true for prepositions than for other words. (Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, 363, emphasis original).
​

Clearly, finding and insisting on a dictionary definition of δια, or any preposition, is not how any real kind of study is done. Many factors go into determining meaning--the author's usage, the context, etc.

Since the current discussion relates to δια, here is the range (or "field") of meaning that Wallace gives for δια:

Basic uses (with genitive and accusative)
1. With genitive

a. Agency: by, through
b. Means: through
c. Spatial: through
d. Temporal: through(out), during
​

2. With accusative

a. Cause: because of, on account of, for the sake of
b. Spatial (rare): through

(Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, 368-9)
​

In determining the meaning of the preposition as it relates to the phrase, the verb must also be considered... But that would be a bridge too far for this discussion, I fear.

The Archangel

​

 

[agedman]

I want to thank archangel, Martin, JofJ, and the rest of you who regularly review my posts for accuracy and holding me accountable. In my flesh, I may desire to “push back,” but must always recognize I am growing less intellectually every day.

This is why whenever I do any original language work on the BB, I call for others who are now far closer to the languages to verify and correct any error I make.

Does it not make for sound work to have that work verified by others?

I would hate to stand before my Lord and answer why I so inappropriately rendered His dictation to the writers.

 

[Van]

SNIP
Since you have been saying "... God credited our righteousness as faith" for quite a few years on this board, it is quite clear you are trying to insert this meaning into the phrase "through faith." So, "To spell it out..." you are wrong.

The Archangel

Here we have yet another material false statement. I say God credited our faith as righteousness" the opposite of this falsifier of charges.

Does "dia" refer to passing through something? Yes (So false charge 1)

Do the quotes from A. T. Robertson support my view? Yes (So false charge 2)

 

[Van]

Romans 3:22
namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction,

In this prepositional phrase, because of or by means of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ could have been chosen to better present the intended message. But what unites receiving the benefit of Christ's sacrifice? All who believe as determined by God

 

[Van]

The means by which something is accomplished, such as our Individual Conditional Election for Salvation is accomplished through or because of or by means of God crediting our faith as righteousness. Thus when you see "through faith" the idea is it is the means by which God chooses the individual to receive the contextual benefit.

Galatians 3:14 (NET)
in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit by faith.

Here we see our phrase (dia pistis) presenting the action of God sealing Gentiles with the Holy Spirit through or because of or by means of God having credited their faith as righteousness. The faith path by which something is accomplish includes (1) hearing the gospel, (2) heeding the gospel, (3) placing our full trust and devotion upon Christ, (4) God crediting our faith as righteousness, and (5) God taking the contextual action.

Galatians 3:26
For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith.

Here God's action is God causes those individuals to be born anew as children of God. And this action was accomplished through or because of or by means of the individuals faith as credited by God. Once again we see the idea that "through faith" refers to the path by which something is accomplished. Faith is the path through which the action is accomplish, but God is the source providing the action.

And folks, this is the Biblical Truth which is being attacked. Pay no attention to false charges and false claims.

 

[The Archangel]

Here we have yet another material false statement. I say God credited our faith as righteousness" the opposite of this falsifier of charges.

Does "dia" refer to passing through something? Yes (So false charge 1)

Do the quotes from A. T. Robertson support my view? Yes (So false charge 2)

Nothing in my statement is false. And, in what way could Robertson possibly be supporting your view?! You've done the grammatical equivalent of arguing 2+2=5 while suggesting that Archimedes supports your calculations. You could not be more wrong if you tried.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Romans 3:22
namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction,

In this prepositional phrase, because of or by means of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ could have been chosen to better present the intended message. But what unites receiving the benefit of Christ's sacrifice? All who believe as determined by God

Yes, it's a prepositional phrase. But, "because of" could not have been chosen because "faith" is in the genitive, not the accusative. Again, there is no "formula" as to what δια means here. The grammarians--especially the ones I've posted--are abundantly clear here.

You really should not try to dig past the bottom of the hole you've already dug.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

The means by which something is accomplished, such as our Individual Conditional Election for Salvation is accomplished through or because of or by means of God crediting our faith as righteousness. Thus when you see "through faith" the idea is it is the means by which God chooses the individual to receive the contextual benefit.

Galatians 3:14 (NET)
in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit by faith.

Here we see our phrase (dia pistis) presenting the action of God sealing Gentiles with the Holy Spirit through or because of or by means of God having credited their faith as righteousness. The faith path by which something is accomplish includes (1) hearing the gospel, (2) heeding the gospel, (3) placing our full trust and devotion upon Christ, (4) God crediting our faith as righteousness, and (5) God taking the contextual action.

Galatians 3:26
For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith.

Here God's action is God causes those individuals to be born anew as children of God. And this action was accomplished through or because of or by means of the individuals faith as credited by God. Once again we see the idea that "through faith" refers to the path by which something is accomplished. Faith is the path through which the action is accomplish, but God is the source providing the action.

And folks, this is the Biblical Truth which is being attacked. Pay no attention to false charges and false claims.

It's interesting.... the Galatians passages are not διὰ πίστεως, but are instead
διὰ τῆς πίστεως. I'll bet you can't really tell me what τῆς is or why Paul includes it here.

By the way... You should understand that disagreeing with your "grammatical thoughts" isn't attacking biblical truth. You have sought to move the goalposts of the argument. You started off by saying διὰ plus the genitive of πιστις was formulaic and meant what you wanted it to mean. That is clearly false. Now, you're claiming that any disagreement with your non-existent Greek skills is an attack on you. This is absurd. There are places where διὰ πίστεως can have an idea of "means" attached to it, but it isn't every case. Much more than dictionary definitions go into such things.

In no way do I, as a reformed theologian, think that man doesn't have to exercise faith to be saved. I am not a hyper-calvinist. But, in no way do I think saving faith is inherent in any human being apart from the work of the Holy Spirit and God's sovereign choice.

The Archangel