Right. Whoever chooses to trust in Him.
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Do people “choose to believe”?
- Thread starter atpollard
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DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
If you look at Jonathan Edwards chapter on effectual calling he doesn't spend much time with the idea that you don't choose. He believed that you are able to act according to your will. He does attack the health and ability of your will and makes the claim that the Holy Spirit must act on our will in a way far beyond persuasion and conviction, and that is not controlled by you. I know that Luther, Edwards and Bunyan did some work on free will but it seems to me at least that they were refuting a Catholic system or Pelagianism where you were told to just reform yourself and change course, or choose to do a series of rituals. The modern debate on here for instance seems to me to almost be more of a self esteem issue. It seems in the older writings the default position of people in general was to give God all the glory for everything whether it be food, safety, keeping us from evil This idea that some credit must be reserved for me because of my choice is troubling. Jonathan Edwards said even the Pharisee said "I thank God I am not as other men". There is an old movie with Jimmy Stewart in the Civil War era where early on in the movie he prays before a meal and thanks God for the food and then adds "But we plowed, we planted, and we worked for it", or something like that. That's what I hear with some of this free will talk. Maybe it isn't fair, but it's no worse that accusing Calvinists of slandering God.
It matters a great deal! The Bible does not teach fatalism. All that the Father has given to the Son will be saved (John 6:39), but they won't be saved without believing, and they won't believe without someone telling them about Jesus One hears increasingly of Moslems having dreams about Jesus, but invariably SFAIK the dreams only cause them to seek out a church or a Christian to ask about Him.
'For........ it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.' You may regard preaching as foolishness in the light of election, and so does God! But 'the foolishness of God is wiser than men,' and he bids us preach, proclaim and witness to unbelievers and promises that whosoever believes will be saved.
I just love the 'whosoever's of the Bible. I would sooner John 3:16 said 'whosoever believes in Him shall have eternal life' than 'Martin Marprelate shall have eternal life.' Because there might be another guy out there called Martin Marprelate and the verse might be about him, not me! But because it says, 'Whosoever believes on Him' and I have believed on Him, I know I have eternal life.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
That would depend on what EVERYONE was predestined for, since Pre-Destined really just means that everyone has a destiny before they were born (the term does not actually address whether or not one can change one's destiny, although most theologies and philosophies do). A baby born to an abusive alcoholic has been born with a certain destiny to events far beyond the power of the child to control, so some "predestination" clearly does exist. Life tells us that.
I agree with you about the fatalistic extreme popularly known as "Hyper-Calvinism" where God has created those that He will save to be saved and God has created those damned to be damned and God operates with equal "sovereignty" to bring about both results for His glory. I can understand the logical conclusion of many Calvinist (Reformed) arguments based on specific texts clearly pointing to this, but the "fatalistic conclusion" is denied by Scripture, so the "logical conclusion" cannot be correct when it goes where Scripture says is false. So I completely agree with you that "predestination" cannot mean "no matter what, it doesn't matter".
Yet how many people start out with the ASSUMPTION that people are basically good and SHOULD all be going to Heaven (or at least have an equal chance to get to Heaven).
- Where does the Bible ever even HINT that people are basically good?
- Why on earth should ANYONE go to heaven? (Just look at Abram, the father of faith or David a man after God's heart and tell me they merit eternity in the presence of God on the basis of a life of obedient service to God. Let's use the Muslim yardstick and place their sins on one side and a feather on the other ... do their sins weigh less than a feather?)
I believe that God found OPTION ZERO unacceptable to HIM, so God chose to do something about it. God chose to love some ANYWAY ... and His love changed them (us ... me) and it changed EVERYTHING.
Some people get more chances than others. I THANK GOD every day that some people kept after me til I came to Jesus, & didn't give up on me & move on OTOH, somewhere in Goofoffistan the Whamboombam tribe mighta heard the Gospel one time, from the missionary they had for dinner(literally) the other day, & may never be visited by another missionary. There might be a very few who believe, but who may be martyred by their fellows for it.The rest will remain lost, without any excuse at all, since they'd heard the Gospel.
I'm a very skeptical person who doesn't believe anything new without concrete evidence. Thus, it took a LOT to get through to me with the Gospel. And I believe the HOLY SPIRIT intervened by causing me to reflect on many things, especially the fact that we cannot create something from nothing, so where'd everything come from? Then, I found that every event mentioned in Scripture is true; not one sentence of Scripture has ever been disproven. And I became truly sorry I'd avoided Jesus for so long & sincerely asked Him to forgive me for that sin & all the others I'd committed in 30 years of living.
BUT I HAD TO CHOOSE!
Rev. 3:20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
Many hear His voice, but they don't open the door! I am SO thankful that He kept knocking & speaking at my "door" until I OPENED it & let Him in! He COULD'VE knocked but once, and, receiving no answer, moved on. But He chose to stay a little longer & knock some more! BUT I HAD TO CHOOSE T
PEN THE DOOR !
I'm a very skeptical person who doesn't believe anything new without concrete evidence. Thus, it took a LOT to get through to me with the Gospel. And I believe the HOLY SPIRIT intervened by causing me to reflect on many things, especially the fact that we cannot create something from nothing, so where'd everything come from? Then, I found that every event mentioned in Scripture is true; not one sentence of Scripture has ever been disproven. And I became truly sorry I'd avoided Jesus for so long & sincerely asked Him to forgive me for that sin & all the others I'd committed in 30 years of living.
BUT I HAD TO CHOOSE!
Rev. 3:20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
Many hear His voice, but they don't open the door! I am SO thankful that He kept knocking & speaking at my "door" until I OPENED it & let Him in! He COULD'VE knocked but once, and, receiving no answer, moved on. But He chose to stay a little longer & knock some more! BUT I HAD TO CHOOSE T
PEN THE DOOR !
That's why I said, "no matter what". I don't believe ANYONE was born predestinated for hell, with no chance to change that destination. However, some ARE born predestinated for heaven, as we see in Scripture. Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jeremiah, eleven of the 12 first apostles, John The Baptist, & Paul are examples. But for anyone else to be saved, they must hear, believe, & obey the Gospel. While some might call that "works", we mustn't forget that "faith without works is dead".
Some people get more chances than others. I THANK GOD every day that some people kept after me til I came to Jesus, & didn't give up on me & move on OTOH, somewhere in Goofoffistan the Whamboombam tribe mighta heard the Gospel one time, from the missionary they had for dinner(literally) the other day, & may never be visited by another missionary. There might be a very few who believe, but who may be martyred by their fellows for it.The rest will remain lost, without any excuse at all, since they'd heard the Gospel.
I'm a very skeptical person who doesn't believe anything new without concrete evidence. Thus, it took a LOT to get through to me with the Gospel. And I believe the HOLY SPIRIT intervened by causing me to reflect on many things, especially the fact that we cannot create something from nothing, so where'd everything come from? Then, I found that every event mentioned in Scripture is true; not one sentence of Scripture has ever been disproven. And I became truly sorry I'd avoided Jesus for so long & sincerely asked Him to forgive me for that sin & all the others I'd committed in 30 years of living.
BUT I HAD TO CHOOSE!
Rev. 3:20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
Many hear His voice, but they don't open the door! I am SO thankful that He kept knocking & speaking at my "door" until I OPENED it & let Him in! He COULD'VE knocked but once, and, receiving no answer, moved on. But He chose to stay a little longer & knock some more! BUT I HAD TO CHOOSE T
That passage is concerning the Church at Lao not meant as an invitation to the lost
the church at Lao was meeting but Christ was nowhere there
By nature we are children of wrath deserving hell
God chooses to save some. He does not have to save anyone and is perfectly just and loving if He did so
Predestination is into salvation
we as unregenerate are already headed to hell
we as unregenerate are already headed to hell
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I would say you are describing being regenerated when you talk about the Holy Spirit intervening. But that testimony is a blessing and thanks for sharing it.
"Faith comes by hearing, & hearing, by the word of God."
It was meant for all, or it wouldn't be in Scripture.
2 Peter 3:19The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Who does "all" leave out? Did God tell Peter, "all, except so-n-so"?
Of course, ALL won't come to repentance, but God has made it possible for them to thus come.
You're welcome. BUT I STILL HAD TO CHOOSE!
All of Gods elect will come to faith in Christ
there is great hope and comfort in that
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
But God has made it possible for ANYONE to come to Him thru Jesus.
Absolutely. But when people come to Him through faith in Jesus, they will find that it was all of grace; that God, in His mercy, has chosen them before the foundation of the world, and drawn them to Himself with lovingkindness (Jeremiah 31:3).
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