The GOD that refuses to save

[AustinC]

Rom 10:9; if you confess
Joh 3:18; He who believes
Joh 5:40; you are unwilling
Eph 1:13; having also believed
Rom 10:13; WHOEVER WILL CALL
Joh 7:17; If anyone is willing to do His will

Man is responsible for the free will choices that they make, and as you can see from the verses above they can and some do choose to follow Christ Jesus.

Martin you do seem to have a problem with logic in your post. You want man to be freely drawn irresistibly. If it is by an irresistible force that one is drawn then man does not have a choice thus it is not done freely.

Man does not set the terms of agreement with God. Man, according to his nature, will never choose God because God demands that they die and be made a new creation in Christ. As long as a human thinks s/he can set the terms of agreement, they will never be saved.
Salvation isn't an issue of human willpower. It's an issue of God's supremacy. Either God saves you or you are unsaved. That's the terms.

 

[Van]

Are there people that "will" to be saved, but are not? (YES - see second and third soils of Matthew 13)

Has God rejected some that desired to come to Christ? (Yes - see second and third soils of Matthew 13)

Does Calvinism teach that "salvation does not depend on men" (Yes - see second and third soils of Matthew 13)

and "men are unable to will (desire) salvation"? (Yes, this is the false claim that all unregenerates are unable to will to be saved due to the "T" of the TULIP, total spiritual inability.)

Does salvation depend on the man that wills (the will of man)? (No, Romans 9:16)
Is God obligated to accept all who ask? (No, see Matthew 7 and those who said "Lord, Lord.")

Does this "problem" really exist? (The existent problem is the false doctrines of Calvinism)

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes indeed, I would not agree.
Matthew 11:25-27; John 3:19; John 5:40; John 6:44; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:4-5 etc. all show that man is unable and unwilling to come to Christ in a saving fashion, but this is not a constitutional inability, but a moral one. Men freely refuse to come to Christ unless and until God opens their hearts to do so, when they freely come. Therefore men are responsible for their choices freely made.
Praise God who in the face of such wickedness and rebellion has given a vast crowd of hell-deserving sinners to the Son who has redeemed them at measureless cost and to the Holy Spirit who has sealed them for the day of redemption and drawn them irresistibly to faith in Christ.

One cannot be unable and yet freely make a choice. That said dead men, like lazerus dead, cannot accept or reject anything, anyone or God.

 

[kyredneck]

One cannot be unable and yet freely make a choice. That said dead men, like lazerus dead, cannot accept or reject anything, anyone or God.

It amazes me that you of all people have to explain this to a 'Reformed pillar' such as @Martin Marprelate.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Be that as it may, the bigger issue of "predestination and free will" remains with the unanswered questions:

Are there people that "will" to be saved, but are not?
Has God rejected some that desired to come to Christ?

There are many who will to be saved, But due to their unbelief will not be saved,Because they chose to reject Gods plan and insert their own.

So the answer would be yes

 

[kyredneck]

Are there people that "will" to be saved, but are not?
Has God rejected some that desired to come to Christ?

Absolutely not.

6 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Mt 5

 

[Silverhair]

Scriptures

Scriptures

Do you hold to all of scripture or only the parts that you think prop up your theology?

 

[Revmitchell]

Man does not set the terms of agreement with God.

Who is making that argument?

 

[AustinC]

Who is making that argument?

Everyone who promotes free will as the means of salvation.

 

[Silverhair]

Calvin was addressing the general call made to all lost sinners, but he also held to a specific saving call only to His own elect!

And you base this on what scripture.

 

[JesusFan]

And you base this on what scripture.

Maybe My Sheep know my voice and will heed me, and come unto me?

 

[Silverhair]

Man does not set the terms of agreement with God. Man, according to his nature, will never choose God because God demands that they die and be made a new creation in Christ. As long as a human thinks s/he can set the terms of agreement, they will never be saved.
Salvation isn't an issue of human willpower. It's an issue of God's supremacy. Either God saves you or you are unsaved. That's the terms.

Your right man does not set the terms God has done that, faith in His son. Like we see in Eph 1:13 ; Rom 10:9; Rom 10:13 God expects man to make a choice, which He has allowed for through our God given free will. Why do you not agree with the scriptures?

 

[AustinC]

There are many who will to be saved, But due to their unbelief will not be saved,Because they chose to reject Gods plan and insert their own.

So the answer would be yes

They want salvation on their terms. That's the free will mantra. "Let me mull it over and consider the terms. If they favor me and I get blessing and prosperity, I will take it. If I don't get what I want, I will reject it.
In both cases, God sends them to hell. No negotiations. God either saves you and makes you a slave to righteousness or you die as a slave to sin.

 

[Revmitchell]

Everyone who promotes free will as the means of salvation.

This is the problem of debating these issues. See no on said what you say they are. No one believes what you say they said. You are intentionally misrepresenting others views to suit your need for a straw man to bat down. It doesn't matter how many times you say it its not true and its there for everyone to see.

Now the reality is no one says they set the terms. What we actually believe is that these are the terms that God has set up. Do you get that? God set these terms up. Now, you may disagree with that. Since you do it would be intellectually honest to simply say, you don't believe those are the terms God set up and here is why......

 

[AustinC]

Your right man does not set the terms God has done that, faith in His son. Like we see in Eph 1:13 ; Rom 10:9; Rom 10:13 God expects man to make a choice, which He has allowed for through our God given free will. Why do you not agree with the scriptures?

The scriptures explicitly tell us that God gives those he makes alive with Christ, faith to persevere. You seem to reject the fact that faith is a gift and instead make faith a work of man. Thus we disagree.

 

[AustinC]

This is the problem of debating these issues. See no on said what you say they are. No one believes what you say they said. You are intentionally misrepresenting others views to suit your need for a straw man to bat down. It doesn't matter how many times you say it its not true and its there for everyone to see.

Now the reality is no one says they set the terms. What we actually believe is that these are the terms that God has set up. Do you get that? God set these terms up. Now, you may disagree with that. Since you do it would be intellectually honest to simply say, you don't believe those are the terms God set up and here is why......

Your statement is simply not true. Everyone who believes in free will, is saying that humans set the negotiation and either reject or accept the offer from God. They go through the Bible and interpret it in a way that seems favorable to them and ignore what would be unfavorable. Moreso, if they come to disagree, they can simply nullify the agreement and walk away.
That's free will theology.

 

[Silverhair]

Maybe My Sheep know my voice and will heed me, and come unto me?

So how does that show that it is only a select group that are called? All those that freely respond to the invitation to trust in Christ Jesus would be called His sheep.

 

[Silverhair]

They want salvation on their terms. That's the free will mantra. "Let me mull it over and consider the terms. If they favor me and I get blessing and prosperity, I will take it. If I don't get what I want, I will reject it.
In both cases, God sends them to hell. No negotiations. God either saves you and makes you a slave to righteousness or you die as a slave to sin.

Why do you insist on such absurd comments. I agree that for some they want God to be the good grandfather in the sky. But do you think that all those that freely trust in Christ Jesus think that way? Since you said you once were not a calvinist then it seems you are just projecting how you were onto everyone else.

I for one can tell you that I did not trust in God because of what you have put forward and actually find your comments quite demeaning to all those that do not think the same as you. But you are prone to that type of language.

 

[Revmitchell]

Your statement is simply not true. Everyone who believes in free will, is saying that humans set the negotiation and either reject or accept the offer from God. They go through the Bible and interpret it in a way that seems favorable to them and ignore what would be unfavorable. Moreso, if they come to disagree, they can simply nullify the agreement and walk away.
That's free will theology.

One of these days you need to actually study free will theology. Then you will know. What you have said here isn't even close. It looks like you have taken something you disagree with and created a caricature of it so as to demonize it in the worst possible sense. Whatever it is it is far from reality.

 

[Silverhair]

The scriptures explicitly tell us that God gives those he makes alive with Christ, faith to persevere. You seem to reject the fact that faith is a gift and instead make faith a work of man. Thus we disagree.

Yes I agree that God gives us the strength to persevere. Those that are already in Christ Jesus. Persevere "Continue in a course of action even in the face of difficulty or with little or no indication of success."

Those that trust in Christ Jesus are made alive.
Eph_2:8-9 by grace saved through faith
Rom_3:20-22 righteousness of God, through faith
Rom_3:27-28 justified by faith apart from the law.
Gal_2:16 justified by faith not by the works

Only in your theology is faith a work, so if anyone is wrong it is you. You are not just in disagreement with me but also with the word of God.