If Calvinism is true, then Christ died for God's sins

[Silverhair]

I do not deny one iota of Scripture. Let me ask you this, was Jesus correct when he said only those that the Father grants can come to him?

Was God correct when He said
Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
or
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
or
Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Those that the father grants to come to Christ Jesus are those that freely believe, you seem to have such a problem with that.

 

[Silverhair]

I feel like a record that skips, repeating over and over again that I love the Bible, but you, Silverhair, are not the Bible. You seem to actually think that you are the Bible. Let me repeat. You are not the Bible. Silverhair, you are not the Bible. Silverhair, you are not the Bible. Silverhair, you are not the Bible.

I disagree with what you say. Let me repeat. I disagree with what you say. I disagree with what you say.
Silverhair, you are not the Bible. I disagree with what you say.

Anyone reading this, not named Silverhair, is there something I am being unclear about in what I have just said?

I feel like a record that skips, repeating over and over again that I love the Bible, but you, Austin C, are not the Bible. You seem to actually think that you are the Bible. Let me repeat. You are not the Bible.

 

[Silverhair]

Sarcasm yes, but a very legitimate point.

Reformed1689 you still do not trust the bible do you. I have pointed you to numerous scriptures in an effort to help you see the truth of scripture but you just reject them all.

 

[AustinC]

I feel like a record that skips, repeating over and over again that I love the Bible, but you, Austin C, are not the Bible. You seem to actually think that you are the Bible. Let me repeat. You are not the Bible.

You are not telling me anything I don't know.
However, I tell you that you do a terrible job of interpreting the Bible, while you tell me I deny the Bible. The two are different things.
You may think my interpretation of the Bible is bad, but you are completely wrong when you claim I deny the Bible. I deny your interpretation is valid and I will continue to deny the validity of your interpretation as long as you project your philosophy onto the text, as you did in John 3.

 

[AustinC]

Silverhair wrote: If you want to see determinism in these verses then that is your free will choice to do so

AustinC wrote:
Do you?
I provided 6 pages of Bible verses and passages where God says he chose, elected and predestined people. Yet, here you are telling us that apparently God made a mistake and those verses don't actually mean what they say.

Well if you think God makes mistakes that is on you not me. I give you the verses that show God allows and actually expects man to make choices. If you do not want to believe them, which from your post is your position, then that is on you.

Let's deal with a few things here.
First, you brought up determinism.
Second, I pointed out that God actually tells that he predestines, which is your mistake.
Then you jump the shark to say, "if you think God makes mistakes..." Which is odd because I pointed out that I had shared 6 pages of verses showing God choosing, electing, and predestinating people to salvation.

How you twist things is your gift, Silverhair.

 

[Silverhair]

You are not telling me anything I don't know.
However, I tell you that you do a terrible job of interpreting the Bible, while you tell me I deny the Bible. The two are different things.
You may think my interpretation of the Bible is bad, but you are completely wrong when you claim I deny the Bible. I deny your interpretation is valid and I will continue to deny the validity of your interpretation as long as you project your philosophy onto the text, as you did in John 3.

That is you prerogative. You look at the bible through the lens of calvinism as is your choice. You may not like what I say in regard to the bible text but as for the interpretation, since it does not agree with your particular view I would not expect you to say anything different than you do. I will continue to point out to you where I see you denying the clear text of scripture. Would you expect me to do otherwise?

When I quote scripture that is not me projecting my philosophy. If you think that me highlighting a text is projecting my philosophy then you will have to admit that you do the same thing as you do that yourself.

Be that as it may we will continue to disagree.

 

[Silverhair]

Let's deal with a few things here.
First, you brought up determinism.
Second, I pointed out that God actually tells that he predestines, which is your mistake.
Then you jump the shark to say, "if you think God makes mistakes..." Which is odd because I pointed out that I had shared 6 pages of verses showing God choosing, electing, and predestinating people to salvation.

How you twist things is your gift, Silverhair.

Yes you did provide a lot of pages that you feel support your view and I did respond to you but as usual you just brush off anything that you do not like.

I have also pointed out to you where you disagree with scripture and your response is that I do not understand the text. How you can deny clear text I do not know but you do so that is the way it is.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

Isn't it interesting how even the verses that you say I avoided show man has a free will.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

Notice the choices being made here:
men loved darkness rather than light {choice}
everyone practicing {choice}
does not come to the light {a chosen action}

Man either has a free will or God has determined what he should do.

But he who does the truth comes to the light {clear choice shown here}

Man can exercise his free will as is shown here.

I'd say that the verses that I quoted and that you quoted say nothing of free will or predestination - John 3:16 neither says "whosoever by his own free will" nor does it say "whosoever as long as you're predestined" - it simply teaches that if one desires God they will come to Him, and He embraces them. Now we do find out later how a man comes to Christ and it takes an initiating work of the Father, which is not done in all men, but only those who have been chosen by the Father; John 6, 10, etc. John 3:16 is a promise (albeit an incredibly wonderful one) that anyone who believes in Christ has the promise that when they come to Him they will be saved - this neither disproves predestination nor is it a verse that teaches it - it is a piece of a larger puzzle in regards to salvation.

3:19-20 Do however prove a thorn in the side of those who promote libertarian free will, as it refers to "everyone practicing evil hates the light" and that encompasses every single individual.

Man determines to sin because it is his desire is to do so, he is in bondage to sin. To say otherwise is to either deny original sin or deny the sin nature altogether in which case man has a neutral will to either do what is good (acceptable/pleasing to God) or evil. In either of these two cases, subsequently, man is then not in bondage to sin. To believe in Christ is good and pleasing to God - however, the man dead in his sin can do nothing to please God, therefore a spiritually dead man is incapable of believing in Christ of his own will - John 6:44.

John Chpt. 3 does not exist in a vacuum, and the rest of John (as well as the whole bible) complete the picture of John 3:16. But I am certain that you are aware of this fact and agree - though we have different conclusions.

 

[Reformed1689]

Reformed1689 you still do not trust the bible do you. I have pointed you to numerous scriptures in an effort to help you see the truth of scripture but you just reject them all.

I don't trust you. I fully trust the Bible. As @AustinC has pointed out, you are not the Bible.

 

[Reformed1689]

Was God correct when He said
Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
or
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
or
Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Those that the father grants to come to Christ Jesus are those that freely believe, you seem to have such a problem with that.

Yes, he will draw both Jew and Gentile to himself. He was correct.
John 3:16 doesn't address the issue of individuals.
John 3:18 shows that some are condemned already.
John 6:44 shows only some have permission.
John 6:45 not sure how you think this supports your view.

And no, it doesn't say those that freely believe, you added that in. That's not Scripture. Scripture states that none seek God.

 

[Reformed1689]

@Silverhair let me ask you an honest question, do you believe we can lose our salvation?

 

[AustinC]

Yes you did provide a lot of pages that you feel support your view and I did respond to you but as usual you just brush off anything that you do not like.

I have also pointed out to you where you disagree with scripture and your response is that I do not understand the text. How you can deny clear text I do not know but you do so that is the way it is.

Correction: You have pointed out to me where I have disagreed with your interpretation of scripture. I have provided my interpretation and often provided the context as well as corroborating passages that help us interpret.
So, once again you are not asserting an actual reality, but are lifting yourself up as the sole true interpreter of scripture who then declares that anyone disagreeing with your interpretation is somehow denying scripture.
Do you see your strawman yet?

 

[Reformed1689]

Correction: You have pointed out to me where I have disagreed with your interpretation of scripture. I have provided my interpretation and often provided the context as well as corroborating passages that help us interpret.
So, once again you are not asserting an actual reality, but are lifting yourself up as the sole true interpreter of scripture who then declares that anyone disagreeing with your interpretation is somehow denying scripture.
Do you see your strawman yet?

Sounds a lot like a Catholic Pope....

 

[Brightfame52]

guido

We know that according to Calvinism, God predestinated some to be saved and some to be lost,

You mean according to Gods word, which you call calvinism.

If no one seeks after him, why?

Because we are Lost. Have you ever read Luke 15 ? You have the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the lost son. Neither sought God, but they were sought .Have you ever hears of the Lost Sheep that sought its Shepherd ?

If there free will is in bondage, who put them in that bondage?

God did because of their sin Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Then God is directly responsible for their sin;

God didnt sin, they did, and God was just in putting them in the prison of sin/unbelief

forcing them to do nothing but sin.

Man sinned willingly, so God punished him for his sin

Therefore, when Christ died on the cross, according to Calvinism, he died for the sins not only of man, but of God.

This is a concoction of yours, but Christ died for sinners who wilfully sinned.. However Christ died for only some sinners, His chosen ones.

 

[Silverhair]

I don't trust you. I fully trust the Bible. As @AustinC has pointed out, you are not the Bible.

And I have pointed out to you that I have not said I was the bible so why do you keep repeating that? Are you slow of learning or just stubborn?

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, he will draw both Jew and Gentile to himself. He was correct.

Then form a biblical view that means everyone.

John 3:16 doesn't address the issue of individuals..

What does "whoever" mean? any person whatever Webster that is individuals

John 3:18 shows that some are condemned already..

Yes they were by their free will "because he has not believed"

John 6:44 shows only some have permission..
John 6:45 not sure how you think this supports your view..

Notice the Father "DRAWS THEM" not drag or force. And how does He draw them, by the gospel message or even nature as we see in
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

But even then we have those that by their free will reject God.

And no, it doesn't say those that freely believe, you added that in. That's not Scripture. Scripture states that none seek .

Your total inability is not in scripture is it? If man does not have the ability to choose but is instead his future is determined by God, as your theology has it, then your theology responsible for all those that reject Him.

SEEK GOD

1Ch_21:30 (NET+) But David could not go before it to seek God's will, for he was afraid of the sword of the LORD's messenger. [but wanted to do so]
2Ch_19:3 (NKJV+) Nevertheless good things are found in you, in that you have removed the wooden images from the land, and have prepared your heart to seek God.”
2Ch_26:5 (ESV+) He set himself to seek God in the days of Zechariah, who instructed him in the fear of God, and as long as he sought the LORD, God made him prosper.
2Ch_30:18-19 (NKJV+) "May the good LORD provide atonement for everyone who prepares his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though he is not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary."
Job_5:8 (ESV+) “As for me, I would seek God, and to God would I commit my cause,
Job_8:5 (NKJV+) If you would earnestly seek God And make your supplication to the Almighty,
Psa_69:32 (NKJV+) The humble shall see this and be glad; And you who seek God, your hearts shall live.
Act_17:27 (NKJV+) so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair let me ask you an honest question, do you believe we can lose our salvation?

Well that bible would indicate that but I have not made a firm decision on it. What do you think?

 

[Silverhair]

Correction: You have pointed out to me where I have disagreed with your interpretation of scripture. I have provided my interpretation and often provided the context as well as corroborating passages that help us interpret.
So, once again you are not asserting an actual reality, but are lifting yourself up as the sole true interpreter of scripture who then declares that anyone disagreeing with your interpretation is somehow denying scripture.
Do you see your strawman yet?

As opposed to you being the sole true interpreter of scripture who then declares that anyone disagreeing with your interpretation is somehow denying scripture.

You provide your man-made interpretation of scripture and, yes, you do deny clear scripture. Just read through your posts.

 

[AustinC]

As opposed to you being the sole true interpreter of scripture who then declares that anyone disagreeing with your interpretation is somehow denying scripture.

You provide your man-made interpretation of scripture and, yes, you do deny clear scripture. Just read through your posts.

I do read my posts. Not one denial of scripture in any of them.

Many posts explaining why your man-made theory is wrong, however.

 

[Silverhair]

Sounds a lot like a Catholic Pope....

How many times are you going to say that one. Just because you do not like what I post does not mean that it is wrong. You will continue to deny clear scripture and make your comments but that does not change the fact that you are denying scripture.