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If Calvinism is true, then Christ died for God's sins

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37818

37818

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Silverhair said:
If you include Rom 10:17 it is clear in regard to our salvation.
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No, not completely. Romans 10:17 is followed by Romans 10:18 which cites Psalms 19:4 referencing God's natural revelation by which God gives everyone faith. None are saved by merely having some kind faith.
". . . But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? . . ." Romans 10:19-21 - Romans 11:1 . . .
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

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Silverhair said:
I have pointed out to Austin and others that the verses in question Rom 3:9-18 are a Midrash. In these verses Paul wanted to teach on the universality of sin. He then went in search of the Hebrew Scriptures to prove his point, and he found some of the harshest statements concerning sin found in the Bible. However, if one reads each of those verses of Scripture in their natural contexts, he would find that it was confined and particular, not general, which is how Paul used those texts.
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Here we go with the Midrash point again as if it proves your point, it doesn't. Do you believe Romans to be inspired? Even if it is quoting Scripture, and it is not a direct quotation, it is there for a purpose in THAT context. So your whole argument is nonsense.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Reformed1689 said:
Here we go with the Midrash point again as if it proves your point, it doesn't. Do you believe Romans to be inspired? Even if it is quoting Scripture, and it is not a direct quotation, it is there for a purpose in THAT context. So your whole argument is nonsense.
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The argument is that all men are sinners and none can be good enough to save themselves. It does not say the none can trust in God or seek God you have to read that into the text. "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law" "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

You do not like what it says because it does not fit with your theology. That is your issue not mine.

You say that I do not accept what the bible says but I see the same problem in your view. Calvinism is a theology that started with Augustine and that Calvin articulated, therefore it is a man-made philosophy that is based on the bible as Augustine & Calvin thought it should be understood.
 
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Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
No, not completely. Romans 10:17 is followed by Romans 10:18 which cites Psalms 19:4 referencing God's natural revelation by which God gives everyone faith. None are saved by merely having some kind faith.
". . . But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? . . ." Romans 10:19-21 - Romans 11:1 . . .
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I would not say God gives everyone faith rather He gives everyone the ability to believe the revelation that is given to them. Creation, the gospel interaction with Christians, etc. whatever way God decides to reach out to man. God is sovereign so He can draw people to Himself in whatever way He chooses.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
The argument is that all men are sinners and none can be good enough to save themselves. It does not say the none can trust in God or seek God you have to read that into the text. "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law" "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

You do not like what it says because it does not fit with your theology. That is your issue not mine.

You say that I do not accept what the bible says but I see the same problem in your view. Calvinism is a theology that started with Augustine and that Calvin articulated, therefore it is a man-made philosophy that is based on the bible as Augustine & Calvin thought it should be understood.
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Yet, I'm the one actually going with what it says and not trying to explain it away to fit my unbiblical humanistic view. That is your problem.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Reformed1689 said:
Yet, I'm the one actually going with what it says and not trying to explain it away to fit my unbiblical humanistic view. That is your problem.
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But you do not understand what Paul used the Midrash for. You can ignore what I have said but that does not change the truth of what I said.
 
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