If Calvinism is true, then Christ died for God's sins

[Silverhair]

I do read my posts. Not one denial of scripture in any of them.

Many posts explaining why your man-made theory is wrong, however.

Calvinism is a man-made theology, that's what you hold to. I trust the bible which in case you do not know is God breathed. That is why the bible is called Holy Scripture.

 

[AustinC]

How many times are you going to say that one. Just because you do not like what I post does not mean that it is wrong. You will continue to deny clear scripture and make your comments but that does not change the fact that you are denying scripture.

Again with your utterly false claim.
Silverhair, what you post is wrong and you have shown this within the scriptures. You just won't accept what you have been shown so you twist the Bible to mean something else that the context does not support.

 

[Reformed1689]

Well that bible would indicate that but I have not made a firm decision on it. What do you think?

See the thread I made. It can't be true with your unbiblical view on free will.

 

[Silverhair]

Again with your utterly false claim.
Silverhair, what you post is wrong and you have shown this within the scriptures. You just won't accept what you have been shown so you twist the Bible to mean something else that the context does not support.

I know that you have to defend your theology but at the same time I have to defend the bible. You think I am wrong well I believe that you. So we are just going to disagree.

 

[Silverhair]

See the thread I made. It can't be true with your unbiblical view on free will.

Well if apostasy is in the bible then yes it would agree with my biblical view of free will.

 

[Silverhair]

Reformed1689 you said no one seeks God but when I gave you several scripture verses that show your wrong I notice you did not respond. And I would venture a guess that you will still say no one seeks God. As I have said you deny scripture.

 

[AustinC]

Reformed1689 you said no one seeks God but when I gave you several scripture verses that show your wrong I notice you did not respond. And I would venture a guess that you will still say no one seeks God. As I have said you deny scripture.

“None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
~ Romans 3:10-18

 

[Silverhair]

“None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
~ Romans 3:10-18

SEEK GOD

1Ch_21:30 (NET+) But David could not go before it to seek God's will, for he was afraid of the sword of the LORD's messenger. [but wanted to do so]
2Ch_19:3 (NKJV+) Nevertheless good things are found in you, in that you have removed the wooden images from the land, and have prepared your heart to seek God.”
2Ch_26:5 (ESV+) He set himself to seek God in the days of Zechariah, who instructed him in the fear of God, and as long as he sought the LORD, God made him prosper.
2Ch_30:18-19 (NKJV+) "May the good LORD provide atonement for everyone who prepares his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though he is not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary."
Job_5:8 (ESV+) “As for me, I would seek God, and to God would I commit my cause,
Job_8:5 (NKJV+) If you would earnestly seek God And make your supplication to the Almighty,
Psa_69:32 (NKJV+) The humble shall see this and be glad; And you who seek God, your hearts shall live.
Act_17:27 (NKJV+) so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

Ya sure Austin no one seeks God because you say no one seeks God. Here you go denying the bible again.

 

[Reformed1689]

j

Reformed1689 you said no one seeks God but when I gave you several scripture verses that show your wrong I notice you did not respond. And I would venture a guess that you will still say no one seeks God. As I have said you deny scripture.

I get that FROM SCRIPTURE. You are the one denying scripture, not me.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Ya sure Austin no one seeks God because you say no one seeks God.

God COMMANDS men to seek Him and find Him. Unregenerate man doesn't. He can't. He is 100% evil and an enemy of God. Austin shared the definitive NT teaching in Romans, the NT "theology" book. "There is NONE righteous, no, not one: There is NONE that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are ALL gone out of the way, they are TOGETHER become unprofitable; there is NONE that doeth good, no, not one.

How can anyone say you DO seek God and are righteous and do good? What a lie.

BUT . . . if the holy Spirit of God changes their fallen nature that had made us all incapable of repentance (part of REAL "seeking" God) and faith (believing the Gospel), then we will.

So it might be easier to understand truth that WITHOUT GOD CHANGING THE PERSON he cannot seek God. When GOD CHANGES THE PERSON (biblical word is "regenerate" or "born again" - unseen and not even understood by people like Jesus explained to Nicodemus) only then will he seek God. And find Him.

That is salvation. God works first on man (it is GOD who seeks and saves the lost - Luke 19:10), then (and only then) is man made able to seek, repent, believe, follow God. Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2), NOT the Lord + man doing ANY seeking.

Quoting unrelated verses about "seeking" shows you can use a concordance but fail to grasp what it means. Understanding that most references are about believers seeking God (like we all do), or commands (like Acts 17) that unregenerate man disobey despite God telling them.

 

[Reformed1689]

SEEK GOD

1Ch_21:30 (NET+) But David could not go before it to seek God's will, for he was afraid of the sword of the LORD's messenger. [but wanted to do so]
2Ch_19:3 (NKJV+) Nevertheless good things are found in you, in that you have removed the wooden images from the land, and have prepared your heart to seek God.”
2Ch_26:5 (ESV+) He set himself to seek God in the days of Zechariah, who instructed him in the fear of God, and as long as he sought the LORD, God made him prosper.
2Ch_30:18-19 (NKJV+) "May the good LORD provide atonement for everyone who prepares his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though he is not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary."
Job_5:8 (ESV+) “As for me, I would seek God, and to God would I commit my cause,
Job_8:5 (NKJV+) If you would earnestly seek God And make your supplication to the Almighty,
Psa_69:32 (NKJV+) The humble shall see this and be glad; And you who seek God, your hearts shall live.
Act_17:27 (NKJV+) so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

Ya sure Austin no one seeks God because you say no one seeks God. Here you go denying the bible again.

More shoddy hermeneutics. All of those refer to believers. You ignore Romans 3.

 

[Silverhair]

God COMMANDS men to seek Him and find Him. Unregenerate man doesn't. He can't. He is 100% evil and an enemy of God. Austin shared the definitive NT teaching in Romans, the NT "theology" book. "There is NONE righteous, no, not one: There is NONE that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are ALL gone out of the way, they are TOGETHER become unprofitable; there is NONE that doeth good, no, not one.

How can anyone say you DO seek God and are righteous and do good? What a lie.

BUT . . . if the holy Spirit of God changes their fallen nature that had made us all incapable of repentance (part of REAL "seeking" God) and faith (believing the Gospel), then we will.

So it might be easier to understand truth that WITHOUT GOD CHANGING THE PERSON he cannot seek God. When GOD CHANGES THE PERSON (biblical word is "regenerate" or "born again" - unseen and not even understood by people like Jesus explained to Nicodemus) only then will he seek God. And find Him.

That is salvation. God works first on man (it is GOD who seeks and saves the lost - Luke 19:10), then (and only then) is man made able to seek, repent, believe, follow God. Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2), NOT the Lord + man doing ANY seeking.

Quoting unrelated verses about "seeking" shows you can use a concordance but fail to grasp what it means. Understanding that most references are about believers seeking God (like we all do), or commands (like Acts 17) that unregenerate man disobey despite God telling them.

After reading through your comments I must say that you and Austin seem read into the text want you are looking for. I have pointed out to Austin and others that the verses in question Rom 3:9-18 are a Midrash. In these verses Paul wanted to teach on the universality of sin. He then went in search of the Hebrew Scriptures to prove his point, and he found some of the harshest statements concerning sin found in the Bible. However, if one reads each of those verses of Scripture in their natural contexts, he would find that it was confined and particular, not general, which is how Paul used those texts.



Paul is not saying, as calvinists would have it, that man is unable to trust in or seek God. He is saying that man is sinful and we know that most will reject Him but those that hear and believe the gospel message will be saved by God.



Man knows God through creation and thus has no excuse for not acknowledging Him as Lord. Rom 1:18-20 And we see the work of the Holy Spirit in convicting man of their sins Joh 16:8-9. Both of these verses point to the fact that God expects man to respond and make choices.

If man is unable to trust in God or be convicted then what is the point of these verses?



Who are the lost? Everyone. When Luke says that God came to seek and to save the lost he was not referring to the calvinist idea of the special elect but to humanity as we can see from 1Ti 2:3-4. Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners as I am sure you would agree and you would also agree that we are all sinners in need of a savoiur. Gods’ desire was for all to be saved but only those that believe will be saved. Joh 3:16-18



The bible is replete with verses that indicate that God expects man to respond the gospel message. If as you have stated man can not do that then why verses like Rom 10:13 or Rom 10:17?



One thing that I did find odd was what you made the comment that man had to be "regenerate" or "born again" and only then “is man made able to seek, repent, believe, follow God.” I do remember you telling me that “Nobody says that.” So you have man saved before they even hear the gospel, believe the gospel, repent and follow God. But that is not what the bible says is it. Eph 2:8 “ For by grace you have been saved through faith” or Rom 10:17 “So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”



Did you actually read Act 17:27? “so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;”

Where in that verse do you find “that unregenerate man disobey despite God telling them.”

That is you reading in the text what you want to find. I do expect better of a minister.

 

[37818]

There is a third view.

 

[Silverhair]

More shoddy hermeneutics. All of those refer to believers. You ignore Romans 3.

Austin said no one seeks God. What did the verses show, people can and do seek God. So your comment is off base.

But than you said all the verses refer to believers. Act 17:27 Paul was speaking to Greeks at the Areopagus. Are you going to tell me that those people that he was speaking to were all believers. And as for Rom 3 I have dealt with that a number of times, but the answer seems to go right over your head or perhaps you are so caught up in your calvinism you can not or will not look at anything that does not support calvinism.

 

[Silverhair]

There is a third view.

Third view of what?

 

[Dr. Bob]

So you have man saved before they even hear the gospel, believe the gospel, repent and follow God.

Assume as an old codger you went to school back in the day when reading comprehension was taught.

I did not "say" that. You intentionally said that to make your erroneous heart (deceitful above all things, deperately wicked) feel good.

I said "When GOD CHANGES THE PERSON (biblical word is "regenerate" or "born again" . . . only then will he seek God."

To be sure no one could possibly miss that GOD works first to convict/convince/regenerate and is 100% the beginning/end of salvation, I even added reminder that you DID NOT SAVE YOURSELF. You and God DID NOT SAVE YOURSELF. God saved you. He is the one to "seek and to save the lost".

Man is regenerated (key word) 100% by God before any repentance, faith, good works, will, want, seek. BEFORE, because Salvation is of the Lord.

 

[37818]

Third view of what?

The premise of this thread is false. And Calvinism is as a whole false.
Logicality where there are two opposing views one can be true or both can be false. Where both views are false, a third view would be true. Of course a supposed third view can be wrong too.

 

[Silverhair]

Assume as an old codger you went to school back in the day when reading comprehension was taught.

I did not "say" that. You intentionally said that to make your erroneous heart (deceitful above all things, deperately wicked) feel good.

I said "When GOD CHANGES THE PERSON (biblical word is "regenerate" or "born again" . . . only then will he seek God."

To be sure no one could possibly miss that GOD works first to convict/convince/regenerate and is 100% the beginning/end of salvation, I even added reminder that you DID NOT SAVE YOURSELF. You and God DID NOT SAVE YOURSELF. God saved you. He is the one to "seek and to save the lost".

Man is regenerated (key word) 100% by God before any repentance, faith, good works, will, want, seek. BEFORE, because Salvation is of the Lord.

Being an old codger myself if you say that the person is regenerated / born again then you are saying that the person is already saved as one is born of the Spirit after they believe not so they will believe.

You are putting the cart before the horse. Does God seek us, YES the bible is clear in that but what it does not have is that man is saved before the believe. Actually were told if we do not believe we are condemned.

When you say "then (and only then) is man made able to seek, repent, believe, follow God." That you say man is MADE ABLE after he has been regenerated/ born again by God then you have the person saved before they even are able to seek, repent, believe, follow God.

You are saying the same thing as Loraine Boettner did
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved."

 

[37818]

Man is regenerated (key word) 100% by God before any repentance, . . .

Not Biblical. Romans 10:13-15 stands against that understanding.

 

[Silverhair]

The premise of this thread is false. And Calvinism is as a whole false.
Logicality where there are two opposing views one can be true or both can be false. Where both views are false, a third view would be true. Of course a supposed third view can be wrong too.

I agree the premise is wrong. God does not can not sin. Christ Jesus dies for the sins of man. His death was sufficient to pay the sin debt of all men but is only efficient for those that freely trust in Him for salvation.