Can The Case Be Made That Christ Died For All?

[Salty]

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[37818]

Yes that was before he died and rose again. But you are ignoring other things Jesus said as well. John 17:20, he prays for the future sheep as well.

". . . Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; . . ." Yet without the truth of the general redemption, your view remains an uncertain gospel for those to choose to believe.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes that was before he died and rose again. But you are ignoring other things Jesus said as well. John 17:20, he prays for the future sheep as well.

Two groups here:
1] the Disciples these alone Joh_17:9
2] converts those who will believe Joh_17:20
2a] the World world may believe Joh_17:21

Further on we see that the world of Joh_17:21 is the same as "The world has not known You" Joh_17:25 referring to the Father.

John further expands on this in
1Jn_2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

The offer of salvation is for all, salvation is for those that freely trust in Christ Jesus.
Act_15:11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
Act_16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom_10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

 

[Reformed1689]

". . . Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; . . ." Yet without the truth of the general redemption, your view remains an uncertain gospel for those to choose to believe.

How is it an uncertain Gospel? That is a creation of your own mind.

 

[Reformed1689]

Strange comment coming form one that limits what God can do.

And you put forth the same falsehood that me, as a Calvinist, somehow limit what God can do. That is not true.

 

[Reformed1689]

Well if you follow the DoG then it is not scripture that you follow.

Such a (snip) different comment, where do you think the Doctrines of Grace come from?

Note: bold = admin add

 

[Reformed1689]

You are arguing against the bible by your DoG. So I ask why do you deny what the bible says?

I follow the Bible and do not deny anything it says.

 

[Reformed1689]

By your own words you limit the gospel message. "I don't tell ANYONE Christ died for their sin, because I do not know that to be true. I tell them Christ died for those who would believe in him."
How can you not know that Christ Jesus died for their sins, do you deny scripture or just ignore what it says.
Rom_5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom_5:8 ... while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Are we all sinners, YES. Did Christ Jesus come to save those sinners, YES.
1Ti_1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

So if we all sin and Christ came to save sinners that would mean that He came to save all and we confirm that idea when we read
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So don't limit the gospel message by telling a half truth. Why not tell people the whole truth.
2Co 5:14 ...that one died for all,
2Co 5:19 ...that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself,
1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all,
1Ti 4:10 ... who is the Savior of all men,

That in no way limits the Gospel Message. What nonsense.

 

[Silverhair]

And you put forth the same falsehood that me, as a Calvinist, somehow limit what God can do. That is not true.

Then please explain to us how the DoG , that you hold to, does not limit God. You must hold to a Limited Atonement and yet God says He desires all to be saved. Remember your theology says only a select group were chosen, that is limiting who can be saved.

Any that were not in that group are damned just because they are not in that group. God could save all people but your theology says He can not.

Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace those come from your theology not the bible.

I am not questioning your faith in Christ Jesus, I am questioning the calvinism that you hold to.

 

[Silverhair]

Such a stupid comment, where do you think the Doctrines of Grace come from?

Not from the bible, unless you misread the text.

 

[Silverhair]

I follow the Bible and do not deny anything it says.

You can hold to the DoG or the bible but not both.

 

[Silverhair]

That in no way limits the Gospel Message. What nonsense.

Then answer how your DoG does not contradict the scriptures I gave you.

 

[37818]

How is it an uncertain Gospel? That is a creation of your own mind.

How does the hearers to know Christ died for them? With the denial that Christ died for them it is an uncertainty.

 

[Salty]

Such a (snip) different comment, where do you think the Doctrines of Grace come from?

Note: bold = admin add

You both read the Bible - but have different interpretations.

looks like you will have to agree to disagree

and lets be careful with some of the adjectives that you use to describe others.

A WORD TO THE WISE IS SUFFICIENT

 

[Reformed1689]

Then please explain to us how the DoG , that you hold to, does not limit God. You must hold to a Limited Atonement and yet God says He desires all to be saved. Remember your theology says only a select group were chosen, that is limiting who can be saved.

Any that were not in that group are damned just because they are not in that group. God could save all people but your theology says He can not.

Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace those come from your theology not the bible.

I am not questioning your faith in Christ Jesus, I am questioning the calvinism that you hold to.

I do not believe God says that he desires all individuals to be saved. I do not see that anywhere in Scripture. Not once. And no, definitely not in 2 Pet. 3:9.

 

[Reformed1689]

How does the hearers to know Christ died for them? With the denial that Christ died for them it is an uncertainty.

If they have ears to hear they are the elect and they would know by the prompting of the spirit to respond.

 

[Reformed1689]

You can hold to the DoG or the bible but not both.

Sure I can, because the DoG comes from Scripture.

 

[37818]

If they have ears to hear they are the elect and they would know by the prompting of the spirit to respond.

Not true. Luke 8:13, ". . . They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. . . ."

 

[Reformed1689]

Not true. Luke 8:13, ". . . They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. . . ."

You know, you really should use a parable to support your position on this. Those have special interpretive rules as they are illustrations and not talking about actual people/situations. They are meant to convey a point.

 

[37818]

You know, you really should use a parable to support your position on this. Those have special interpretive rules as they are illustrations and not talking about actual people/situations. They are meant to convey a point.

So you do not believe parable of the sower represents four conditions of hearers of the gospel? What about not doing the will of God in Matthew 7:21-23? Or the gospel being hidden to the lost in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4?