Can The Case Be Made That Christ Died For All?

[37818]

What Bible are you reading? Are you saying that Jesus did not die for those that would believe in Him? Man you are on some shaky ground here.

He died for His sheep. John 10:15, ". . . I lay down my life for the sheep. . . ." And in John 10:16, ". . . other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. . . ." That was then before He had died and rose again. All that wes said was to those John wrote about. There is nothing for us today, if the general redemption is not true anywhere in the New Testament.

 

[Silverhair]

1 John 2:2 has been addressed many, many times. You isolate a sentence and thus you fail to grasp what John is saying in the whole of his letter. Your hermeneutics are bad. We have shown you this. You are showing us your ignorance.

Romans 3 is such a wonderful treatise on justification by faith alone for the believer. Salvation has already taken place by God's grace and justification is next in line. Thanks for reminding all believers about what God has done for them in giving them the gift of faith.

And there in lays the real problem of calvinism. You do not even understand basic scripture. You have been shown your errors many times and you still refuse to remove the blinders.

Your comprehension skills need to be worked on. You continue to attack the bible as a way to justify your theology. Your trying to teach another gospel.

 

[37818]

They cannot believe unless God makes them alive to the gospel.

Then the whole story is a meaningless joke. Epistemology makes you understanding wrong.

 

[Silverhair]

They cannot believe unless God makes them alive to the gospel. When God calls their name, they will believe and have faith.

We say "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ" and many/most look at us as fools. Those whom God calls out, look at us and say, "I believe" precisely because God just made them alive and gave them faith to believe.
It is a profound mystery how the Holy Spirit does this, but it is a glorious mystery. When you hear Jesus call you, you know it's the voice of your Shepherd.

It is hearing the gospel and being convicted by it that makes a person realize that they are a sinner in need of salvation. When they believe the gospel and call out to God He will save them because they have faith not so that He will give them faith.

You are trying to make the bible fit into your theology, that is wrong. I am puzzled as to why you have such a hard time believing the bible.

 

[Reformed1689]

He died for His sheep. John 10:15, ". . . I lay down my life for the sheep. . . ." And in John 10:16, ". . . other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. . . ." That was then before He had died and rose again. All that wes said was to those John wrote about. There is nothing for us today, if the general redemption is not true anywhere in the New Testament.

Yes that was before he died and rose again. But you are ignoring other things Jesus said as well. John 17:20, he prays for the future sheep as well.

 

[Reformed1689]

And that shows a major flaw in calvinism. You can not even know if you are saved as you had nothing to do with being saved. You did not even believe, God had to give you faith and you just have to hope that it was real. It could all be just wishful thinking on your part.

It would be interesting to hear you explain the gospel to your loved ones. Do you tell them that odds are that God did not pick them out and that they are bound for hell and there is nothing they can do about it.

How do you explain Joh 3:14-18 or Eph 1:13 or Rom 10:13?

I have already told you how I explain the Gospel. Jesus died for those who would believe in Him. Why is that such a hard statement for you? What makes you think that is NOT the Gospel? Hmm?

 

[Reformed1689]

Can we all say confirmation basis.

No, you made a claim about Calvinists and what we believe, I said I don't know of any Calvinist that believes the nonsense you were putting forth so I put the question out there. You clearly do not understand what you are arguing against.

 

[Reformed1689]

Then you do not know your scripture. Stop looking at scripture threw those calvinist glasses.

Are you going to deal with the actual argument?

 

[Reformed1689]

I just posted what you DoG states. Yet you deny it so I have to wonder if you really know what you believe.

No, it is YOU who do not know what I believe. You just put forth caricatures and nonsense.

 

[Reformed1689]

So of your comments are really childish but I am starting to expect that from some of the people on here. Call me what ever makes you happy.

It's not what makes me happy. It is sad and pathetic really that you view humanity above God. I don't say this as a put down, I say this out of observation of your arguments. You have a high view of man and a low view of God.

 

[Reformed1689]

This goes back to a post that reformed 1689 has not dealt with and I doubt that he will.

Again, I'm not going to deal with an argument against a position that I do not actually hold.

 

[kyredneck]

And the strawman argument continues. Why do you think we preach they are saved before they believe? I know that is the hyper-cal point of view, but not the overal Calvinist point of view.

No. The 'hypers' don't conflate 'saved' with 'born from above'.

 

[Silverhair]

I have already told you how I explain the Gospel. Jesus died for those who would believe in Him. Why is that such a hard statement for you? What makes you think that is NOT the Gospel? Hmm?

By your own words you limit the gospel message. "I don't tell ANYONE Christ died for their sin, because I do not know that to be true. I tell them Christ died for those who would believe in him."
How can you not know that Christ Jesus died for their sins, do you deny scripture or just ignore what it says.
Rom_5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom_5:8 ... while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Are we all sinners, YES. Did Christ Jesus come to save those sinners, YES.
1Ti_1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

So if we all sin and Christ came to save sinners that would mean that He came to save all and we confirm that idea when we read
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So don't limit the gospel message by telling a half truth. Why not tell people the whole truth.
2Co 5:14 ...that one died for all,
2Co 5:19 ...that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself,
1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all,
1Ti 4:10 ... who is the Savior of all men,

 

[Silverhair]

No, you made a claim about Calvinists and what we believe, I said I don't know of any Calvinist that believes the nonsense you were putting forth so I put the question out there. You clearly do not understand what you are arguing against.

You are arguing against the bible by your DoG. So I ask why do you deny what the bible says?

 

[Silverhair]

No, it is YOU who do not know what I believe. You just put forth caricatures and nonsense.

Well if you follow the DoG then it is not scripture that you follow.

 

[Silverhair]

It's not what makes me happy. It is sad and pathetic really that you view humanity above God. I don't say this as a put down, I say this out of observation of your arguments. You have a high view of man and a low view of God.

Strange comment coming form one that limits what God can do.

 

[Campion]

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Of Jesus did not die for all. He lied. Plain and simple. He told nicodemus a flat out lie.

 

[Silverhair]

Again, I'm not going to deal with an argument against a position that I do not actually hold.

1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

You keep saying you follow the DoG but then say that it is a position you do not actually hold. So which is it?

If you hold to the DoG then how do you reconcile that view with the scriptures listed above.

The Gospel call in calvinism is not a well meant call or sincere offer. Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God. Their own theology precludes this, but they just do not want to acknowledge that fact.

How do you square the scriptures with DoG. If your calvinist view is in fact true you should be able to make a solid case.

Calvinist theology has made the good faith offer of salvation moot. If, according to Calvinism, you are not part of this select group then you are doomed form the start. And on top of that God has even decreed just the way you will act out your sinful life and then condemns you for it.

 

[Campion]

To further demonstrate how sadistic the God of Calvinism is, the progenitor taught that God will actually deceive people into thinking they are elect, illumining their minds into thinking they are saved, only to pull the rug out from under them at the end...

“Nor do I even deny that God illumines their [reprobates] minds to this extent, that they recognize his grace; but that conviction he distinguishes from the peculiar testimony which he gives to his elect in this respect, that the reprobate never attain to the full result or to fruition. When he shows himself propitious to them, it is not as if he had truly rescued them from death, and taken them under his protection. He only gives them a manifestation of his present mercy.” (Institutes, 3.2.11)

This God of Calvinism is very similar to the God of Islam. Both act with pure will and contra-Logos.