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Calvinism and John 3:16

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SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

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The Archangel said:
False.

The Archangel
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then PROVE me false!

ALL of your attempts from the Greek have been FALSE! It seems that you don't really understand the difference of the GENERAL MEANINGS of words, and CONTEXTUAL MEANINGS!

There can be NO other way to understand "τὸν κόσμον" in verse 16, than EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING

if you still think that I am wrong here, then PROVE it from the CONTEXT, or be humble enough to admit that you are wrong!
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
JesusFan said:
It identifies and marks out and defines to us that the one in mind of the author are those who have received Jesus thru faith and are now redeemed,
It does not mean all who hear, but all who have received after hearing him as lord and Savior!
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the issue is in the meaning of "τὸν κόσμον" in verse 16, "the elect only", or "the entire human race"

If the former, then it is clear from the passage, that only those from "the elect" who "believe", will be saved; and those from "the elect", who "do not believe", will be damned. These are the two classes in this passage of John 3:16-18

It is clear from the responses on here, that those like @Reformed1689 and @The Archangel, cannot grasp what this passage says, because their THEOLOGY trips them up! The Greek that @The Archangel has presented is flawed, and is against the majority of the English versions!
 
The Archangel

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
then PROVE me false!

ALL of your attempts from the Greek have been FALSE! It seems that you don't really understand the difference of the GENERAL MEANINGS of words, and CONTEXTUAL MEANINGS!

There can be NO other way to understand "τὸν κόσμον" in verse 16, than EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING

if you still think that I am wrong here, then PROVE it from the CONTEXT, or be humble enough to admit that you are wrong!
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I have already demonstrated your error; you have simply ignored my posts.

The Archangel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
M

Martin Marprelate

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SavedByGrace said:
the issue is in the meaning of "τὸν κόσμον" in verse 16, "the elect only", or "the entire human race"
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It is neither of those. While there are many meanings of kosmos, the most usual is 'the world as it lies outside of Christ' (eg. 1 John 2:15-17). This is how God loved this fallen world: He gave His only begotten Son for whosoever believes. But those who believe are those whose heart God has opened to do so (Jeremiah 31:3 ; John 6:44; Acts of the Apostles 16:14).
 
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Revmitchell

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Reformed theology forces them to view John 3:16 through the lens of their faulty view of election. While everyone else understands it by the plain reading of the text.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
. . . For God so loved | mankind |, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into | mankind | to condemn | mankind |; but that | mankind | through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into | mankind |, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. . . .
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Martin Marprelate said:
It is neither of those. While there are many meanings of kosmos, the most usual is 'the world as it lies outside of Christ' (eg. 1 John 2:15-17). This is how God loved this fallen world: He gave His only begotten Son for whosoever believes. But those who believe are those whose heart God has opened to do so (Jeremiah 31:3 ; John 6:44; Acts of the Apostles 16:14).
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This is the main problem with the theology of the Calvinist, they simply cannot grasp what Jesus is saying, because of their theology!

"For God so loves the entire human race that He gave His Unique Son". This is one sentence and these words belong together. Out of this human race, there are two parts, those who will believe, and those who will not believe. The former will be saved, and the latter will be lost. It is that simple.

It is ONLY your "theology", that makes you read, "He gave His only begotten Son for whosoever believes", which is not what Jesus says
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
The Archangel said:
You’ve claimed that… but you’ve yet to demonstrate why. All you’ve done is said it’s wrong. You’ve made the claim it’s wrong. Now… prove your claim.

The Archangel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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This is what you wrote in #60, where you completely misunderstand the Greek!

This is wrong. πᾶς is not where the KJV gets "whosoever." And, I might add, the translation "whosoever" is wrong. The relevant portion of the passage : πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν. Whether this portion is translate as "whosoever believes" (the wrong way) or "all the ones believing" (the right way) hinges on the definite article before pisteuown. Here's where we go into the deep end of the pool:

The masculine singular definite article in Greek is ὁ. (Notice the "rough" breathing mark...it looks like an apostrophe over the letter). The neuter singular relative pronoun in Greek is ὅ. (Notice the accent mark next to the rough breathing mark).

The neuter relative pronoun might be translated "whosoever;" the definite article cannot be. If, indeed, John wanted to convey the idea of "whosoever," he would have likely done it with a relative pronoun. But, here's the thing: The participle "the one believing" is a masculine singular participle. The relative pronoun that couples with a masculine singular noun is ὅς, not ὅ. ὅ is the relative pronoun that would be used for a neuter singular noun.

So, it is not possible to take ὁ as a relative pronoun because to do so would break the Greek grammatical rules related to gender. Therefore, this participle cannot be translated "whosoever believes." The proper translation is "the believing one" or "the one who believes."

To say that the versions like the KJV, do not translate "πᾶς", by the English "whosoever", is your first mistake. Because that is exactly where the get "whosoever", from

Your second mistake is your assertion that the translation "whosoever" is wrong. The KJV translates the Greek adjective "πᾶς", by the English "whosoever", about 90 times in the NT. You think that you know more Greek than these first-class scholars who translated the KJV? Bill Mounce in his interlinear, reads, "that everyone who believes in him" (Bible Gateway passage: John 3:16 - Mounce Reverse Interlinear New Testament), which is what the Greek says

Your third mistake is, "The relative pronoun that couples with a masculine singular noun is ὅς, not ὅ. ὅ is the relative pronoun that would be used for a neuter singular noun". This is complete rubbish, as "ὁ" here is the Greek article in the nominative, masculine, singular, and not a pronoun, where the meaning is, "every single person who believes in Him", etc.

I really don't know where you get your Greek from, but it is well faulty!
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
the ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION, is NOT "those who believe", but THOSE FOR WHOM JESUS DIED.
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John 3:16 [NASB95]
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”

God gave his Son = whosoever believes = have eternal life

That is Christ died for His sheep, not Christ died for the whole human race.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
John 3:16 [NASB95]
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”

God gave his Son = whosoever believes = have eternal life

That is Christ died for His sheep, not Christ died for the whole human race.
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so WHAT is news here?

I have NEVER said that EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION, belongs to the Greek "πᾶς", but it does with, "τὸν κόσμον", here is you error!

"That is Christ died for His sheep, not Christ died for the whole human race." says your theology, "τὸν κόσμον", in verse 16, it its context, CANNNOT mean "the elect", this is IMPOSSIBLE!
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
That is Christ died for His sheep, not Christ died for the whole human race.
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Ah, Christ died for all of mankind in order to die for His sheep. Otherwise no one has any grounds to believe in Him. There is no gospel without a general redemption for those who do not yet believe to know Christ died for them. Romans 5:8, Romans 1:16, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4.
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
Ah, Christ died for all of mankind in order to die for His sheep. Otherwise no one has any grounds to believe in Him. There is no gospel without a general redemption for those who do not yet believe to know Christ died for them. Romans 5:8, Romans 1:16, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4.
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Perhaps … but according to John 3:16, it is “whosoever believes” that has “eternal life” and not “all of mankind” that has “eternal life”.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
Perhaps … but according to John 3:16, it is “whosoever believes” that has “eternal life” and not “all of mankind” that has “eternal life”.
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Question. How does anyone have any grounds to believe Christ died for one before believing in order to believe Christ died for one? Romans 5:8 etc.
 
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