Whosoever - John 3:16

[AustinC]

Not any attempt, I make the Biblical distinction. Which you, it does seem, refuse to accept as true. Ephesians 1:4 is not the election in Matthew 22:14.

In Ephesians 1:4 we see the election of the saints. In Matthew 22 we see the removal the non-elect from the wedding feast. Therefore not everyone is chosen.

 

[37818]

your view is wrong because that isn't what the passage states and is in direct disagreement with other Scriptures. You read that into the passage. That's eisegesis.

Your interpertation is pure eisegesis.

 

[Reformed1689]

Your interpertation is pure eisegesis.

You literally read something into that is not there. Please explain how "in their lifetime" can be extrapolated from that verse...

 

[37818]

You are arguing out of both sides of your mouth. In one, you use election and chosen as synonyms then try to claim they are not. Which is it?

Really. Where is ἐκλέγομαι ever translated "elect"? It is not. Now ἐκλεκτός used in 23 verses is only sometimes translated "elect." So in your eisegesis that makes ἐκλέγομαι to mean "elect." Is that not what you are defending?

 

[37818]

You literally read something into that is not there. Please explain how "in their lifetime" can be extrapolated from that verse...

What verse?

 

[37818]

In Ephesians 1:4 we see the election of the saints. In Matthew 22 we see the removal the non-elect from the wedding feast. Therefore not everyone is chosen.

You do not know what you are talking about. You think you do.

So in your eisegesis that makes ἐκλέγομαι to mean "elect.

 

[37818]

The irrational want to have ἐκλέγομαι in Ephesians 1:4 to mean the same as ἐκλεκτός. And there is no reasoning with the irrational.

 

[AustinC]

The irrational want to have ἐκλέγομαι in Ephesians 1:4 to mean the same as ἐκλεκτός. And there is no reasoning with the irrational.

The lack of rational thought is all yours. You are attempting to create a distinction that God never makes. You are attempting to create your theology from empty air.

 

[37818]

.

. . . distinction that God never makes . . .

A false claim. You want ἐκλέγομαι in Ephesians 1:4 to mean ἐκλεκτός.

 

[AustinC]

.

A false claim. You want ἐκλέγομαι in Ephesians 1:4 to mean ἐκλεκτός.

No.

Ephesians 1 is not the same as Matthew 22.

God is making two different points, but you cannot see it.
Yet chosen and elect are still synonyms.

 

[Silverhair]

Yet, Matthew starts out with a particular salvation.

*Matthew 1:20-21*

But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

Pay attention to the believe because it guides the whosoever in the verse.

Austin that is just what we have been telling all along whoever believes, you know hear the gospel believes the gospel, will be saved. Glad to see that you are finally coming around and trusting what the bible says.

 

[Silverhair]

I am not reading it into that text. I am reading it in Ephesians 1:3-4 which is specifically talking to that issue. John is not concerned with that point here in John 3:16.
You are proving my assertion that you do not bring all of scripture into your theology. Thus you fail to discern the truth of God's revelation to you.

Actually what Ephesians 1:3-4 is talking about is that those that are in Christ Jesus will experience the spiritual blessings. And the only way to be "in Christ" is through faith. So you could not be in Christ before creation or even the day before you trusted in Christ. That is just your failed philosophy talking.

 

[AustinC]

Actually what Ephesians 1:3-4 is talking about is that those that are in Christ Jesus will experience the spiritual blessings. And the only way to be "in Christ" is through faith. So you could not be in Christ before creation or even the day before you trusted in Christ. That is just your failed philosophy talking.

No, not even close.

*Ephesians 1:3-6*

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The two related words are in fact used differently. Both words are used in Mark 13:20. Both for the election as in Matthew 22:14 and having been chosen as in Ephesians 1:4.

I think you need to explain just why you think they are used differently, and produce some evidence for your belief.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

.

A false claim. You want ἐκλέγομαι in Ephesians 1:4 to mean ἐκλεκτός.

ἐκλέγομαι is a verb; ἐκλεκτός is a noun, specifically, a participle. In the KJV, ἐκλέγομαι is never translated as to 'elect,' but rather, to 'choose.' However, the two terms a pretty much synonymous in English. When you have a Presidential election, you go to choose a new President, or at least, to make your choice for one.
The word is used for choosing or electing in time (eg. Luke 6:13) and also for choosing or electing in eternity (eg. Ephesians 1:4)

ἐκλεκτός is translated in the KJV an 'elect' (as a noun)16 times and as 'chosen' 7 times, I can see nowhere that ἐκλεκτός could not be translated a 'chosen' or chosen one(s).

 

[AustinC]

Austin that is just what we have been telling all along whoever believes, you know hear the gospel believes the gospel, will be saved. Glad to see that you are finally coming around and trusting what the bible says.

Silverhair, Whoever believes is the one who hears Jesus choose them by calling their name and raising them from death to life. This is what I have been telling you. Whoever hears, will believe. Whoever remains dead, will not hear, nor will they believe. You are so close to coming around and believing what the Bible says.
"But God..."

 

[37818]

I think you need to explain just why you think they are used differently, and produce some evidence for your belief.

I had explicitly.

 

[37818]

. . . ἐκλεκτός is a noun, specifically, . . .

In all 23 verses it is always a modifier of noun. And in 16 of the verses translated "elect" in the translation I use.

ἐκλέγομαι is a verb; . . .

And so never translated "election" to mean someone being elect.
Mark 13:20 is an excellent find. It shows that the elect were previously chosen in agreement with Ephesians 1:4, as I understand this.

 

[Silverhair]

No, not even close.

*Ephesians 1:3-6*

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Were you "in Christ" before you believed?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

In all 23 verses it is always a modifier of noun. And in 16 of the verses translated "elect" in the translation I use.

Matthew 24L22. 'For the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.' See also vs. 24 & 31, the parallel verses in Mark; Luke 18:2; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1. There is no noun to be modified in any of these verses, though I suppose you can make the addition of 'people' if you want, though it's not in the text. In fairness, in 1 Timothy 5:21; 1 Peter 1:2; 2:6; 2 John 1, 13, ἐκλεκτός is used as an adjective. My mistake.

And so never translated "election" to mean someone being elect.

There is another word used 6 times in the NT which is translated 'election,' ekloge. According to Bagster's Analytical Greek Lexicon, it means, 'the aggregate of those who are chosen, the elect' (Romans 11:7)..

Mark 13:20 is an excellent find. It shows that the elect were previously chosen in agreement with Ephesians 1:4, as I understand this.

Well of course the elect were previously chosen! Otherwise they wouldn't be elect, would they? According to Ephesians 1:4, they were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

And how exactly could ἐκλέγομαι be translated as 'election'? It's a verb.

I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make, and where exactly we disagree.