"Righteous faith"

[Van]

It is not ludicrous to say that God gave Abraham faith to believe.
It's ludicrous to teach that Abraham drew faith from his wretched soul and molded it into a righteous faith that God declared righteous and thus saved Abraham because of it. That is truly ludicrous and you are the one teaching such a ludicrous doctrine that is graceless.

It is ludicrous to change the inspired word which reads Abraham's faith.
Only you are suggesting Abraham "drew faith from his wretched soul and made it into righteous faith.
Does salvation depend of our faith or God's mercy? God's mercy.
Your claim our faith, which is worthless filthy rag faith merits salvation is also ludicrous. We are saved by grace though our credited faith, not saved by grace then given faith.
AustinC is the one misrepresenting both my view and scripture.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Martin, I wish you would discuss my views, and not your strawmen.
1) You claimed a person would not be saved when they believed. Stand up for your statements

No. You said that. You said that a person is not saved when he believes unless the Lord credits his faith as righteousness. I have said that Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved' but they need to persevere in the faith, which they will do if they are God's elect, because the Lord Jesus will not lose even one of those whom the Father has given Him.

2) Salvation is of the Lord is not at issue. Salvation being according to mercy is not a issue.

Not with me it isn't. But you have this bizarre theory that people believe in Christ entirely under their own steam (contra John 6:44; 1 Corinthians 2:14) but that then God comes along and rules their faith out of order.

3) Why attack my use of Greek rather than the fact "eis" means "into."?

Because your understanding of Greek is minimal . The semantic range of most Greek prepositions is huge and the meaning is often dependent on the context. Eis certainly means 'into' very often, but it can also mean 'to,' 'towards,' 'for' and 'among.' It basically denotes movement, but there are 3 and a half pages of very small print in my Greek lexicon devoted to eis. To suppose that it must always mean 'into' is simply wrong.

4) Did you address all the verses that say believe into something?

Did you ask me to? Go and do your own homework if you think it's going to prove your point. [Hint: it isn't]

5) Did you pretend the view into means something other than in is my view and not a widely held view among scholars?

I did not pretend anything. I stated that the use of eis in John 3:36 and elsewhere does not mean that God will come along and declare it false faith. 'He who believes in the Son has everlasting life .' There is no mention of this being subject to a review by the Almighty. However, be aware that 'believes' is in the Present Tense which in Greek denotes continuity. Those who believe and then fall away are not included in the promise.

6) Did I say in Acts 16:31 the word translated "on" means "into?"

Did I say you said that? What I would like you to do is to explain the meaning of Acts of the Apostles 16:31 and how it is different from, say, John 3:36.

Martin, I teach the truth.

Van, no you don't. You are very quick to talk about 'falsehood' and 'falseology,' and if you treated others with more respect, I would give the same courtesy to you. But I tell you now that your beliefs are way out of line with the Bible

 

[AustinC]

It is ludicrous to change the inspired word which reads Abraham's faith.
Only you are suggesting Abraham "drew faith from his wretched soul and made it into righteous faith.
Does salvation depend of our faith or God's mercy? God's mercy.
Your claim our faith, which is worthless filthy rag faith merits salvation is also ludicrous. We are saved by grace though our credited faith, not saved by grace then given faith.
AustinC is the one misrepresenting both my view and scripture.

Salvation depends on God's grace and God's grace alone, Van.
God's mercy stays his judgment for a time. God's grace saves us from His judgment for eternity.
My claim is that no one has any faith until God graciously makes a person alive with Christ.
No one has faith before God chooses to save us by grace alone.
Romans 4 supports me, not you, Van.

 

[Van]

Salvation depends on God's grace and God's grace alone, Van.
God's mercy stays his judgment for a time. God's grace saves us from His judgment for eternity.
My claim is that no one has any faith until God graciously makes a person alive with Christ.
No one has faith before God chooses to save us by grace alone.
Romans 4 supports me, not you, Van.

Your claim is unbiblical nonsense, as scripture says we are saved by grace through faith, not saved by grace then given faith.
Jesus said "Your faith has saved you!"
The entire Bible supports me and demonstrates your claims of false.

 

[Van]

1) You [Martin]claimed a person would not be saved when they believed. Stand up for your statements

No. You said that. You said that a person is not saved when he believes unless the Lord credits his faith as righteousness. SNIP

Here is Martin's statement: Acts 16:31. 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.....' Unless of course God does not credit your faith as righteousness, in which case you won't be.

I said God determines whether or not our profession of faith meets His definition of "believes." Thus whoever believes in Christ according to God who knows our heart, fulfills Acts 16:31

 

[Van]

Yet another strawman, disinformation on display:

2) Salvation is of the Lord is not at issue. Salvation being according to mercy is not a issue.

Not with me it isn't. But you have this bizarre theory that people believe in Christ entirely under their own steam (contra John 6:44; 1 Corinthians 2:14) but that then God comes along and rules their faith out of order.

Did I say "people believe in Christ entirely under their own steam?" Nope. So we have another material false statement.

People come to faith in Christ because of God's revelation, the work of the Holy Spirit such as the inspired Word of God, and God's drawing (attracting) them, and the witness of believers.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Salvation depends on God's grace and God's grace alone, Van

Absolutely right. To you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe on [Greek eis, 'into'] Him, but also to suffer for His sake' (Philippians 1:29). The Greek word translated "granted" is echaristhe which comes from charis, which means a 'gift.'
Suffering isn't perhaps the most popular charismatic gift, but suffering, patiently borne, can be an attraction to those outside the faith. Ruth saw something noble in Naomi's suffering after the death of her family which led her to follow the older woman to Israel and eventually to the KInsman Redeemer.

 

[Van]

3) Why attack my use of Greek rather than the fact "eis" means "into."?

Because your understanding of Greek is minimal .

Here Martin admits he deflects from addressing the topic using disparagement. Nuff said.

 

[Van]

A question to ask yourselves is:

"Does God credit the faith of some humans as righteous faith?" See Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-25.
The answer of course is yes.

How about does God ask fallen individuals to put their faith in Christ? See John 6:29
The answer of course is yes.

Does John 3:16 indicate everyone whose faith is credited as righteous faith will not perish?
The answer of course is yes

Notice the naysayers do not answer with a yes or no!.

 

[Van]

To you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe on [Greek eis, 'into'] Him, but also to suffer for His sake' (Philippians 1:29). The Greek word translated "granted" is echaristhe which comes from charis, which means a 'gift.'

More fiction, the idea is God allows people to believe or not. The idea is the bestowal of divine favor. Romans 11 tells us of folks God did not allow to come to faith.

 

[Van]

The phrase "believe into" is found about 15 times in the NT, in 11 verses written by John, one by Matthew, one by Luke, and two by Paul. The elephant in the room is did God inspire the use of "into" to present a distinction from on or in? I think yes. When the idea is when God credits the belief as righteous faith, the person believes into Christ.

If we want to stick with belief in, then credited belief in is usually indicated by the use of "into." Anyway, that is a widely held view.

We do not come to "righteous faith" necessarily all at one, some of us grow into our faith over time. You could say, during the process what we have is righteous, but more is needed. Someone growing into righteous faith could be said to be "entering the kingdom" yet obvious would not have entered. I think Matthew 23:13 presents such an example.

Similarly I think in Matthew 18:6 where "little one" are said to be "believing into" Him, I think Jesus is saying they are in the process of growing into righteous faith.

In Acts 19:4, the idea is for people listening to John the Baptist to "righteously believe in" the One coming after him.

In Romans 10:14 I think the idea is people cannot call on whom they have not "righteously believed."

In Philippians 1:29, the idea is not only has God allowed them to "righteously believe" in Him but also to suffer on His behalf. The bestowal of this divine favor is not the fictional "gift of faith."

 

[Dave G]

No answer will be forthcoming as to why God credits the faith of some individuals.

Because they are His elect whom He foreknew, and to whom it is given to, by His grace, both to believe on Christ and to suffer for His sake ( Philippians 1:29 ).

No answer will be forthcoming as to "does God ask fallen individuals to put their faith in Christ?"

I'm not aware that He does.
If you know of a place in the Scriptures where God asks fallen men to believe on His Son, please show us.

No answer will be forthcoming as to "Does John 3:16 indicate everyone whose faith is credited as righteous faith will not perish?

In a round about way, yes.
Combining John 3:16 with Romans 4, does tell us this...
as does understanding who God's people are, how they came to be His people, and what was, is, and will be accomplished in them, through them and for them.

Does Romans 5:17 tell us that that very righteousness, which is credited ( imputed ) to the believer, is a gift from God?
Yes, it does.

Gifts cannot be earned, only given and received.

 

[AustinC]

Your claim is unbiblical nonsense, as scripture says we are saved by grace through faith, not saved by grace then given faith.
Jesus said "Your faith has saved you!"
The entire Bible supports me and demonstrates your claims of false.

Through faith that is a gift which is not your own so that you cannot boast.
No matter how you slice it, faith is a gift from God because of his gracious salvation.
God is the cause and man is the effected party.

 

[percho]

Righteous Faith - ?

A serious question for all of you.

Hab 2:4
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.


Rom 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Heb 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Why do you think none of the three in the NT is a verbatim quote from Habakkuk?

I notice out of thirteen English translations of Mark 11:22 only one Youngs Literal Translation is
Have faith of God. --- Which BTW I believe to be the correct translation.

How do you think one would come about having the faith of God?

I believe the the reason it is not verbatim is because of the following.

And before the coming of the faith, (That spoken of in Habakkuk)
under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith (Of God, Mark 11:22)
we may be declared righteous, and the faith (Of God, Mark 11:22) having come, no more under a child-conductor are we,
Gal 3:23-25

for sin over you shall not have lordship, for ye are not under law, but under grace. Rom 6:14 Was it because of the death and resurrection of Jesus they went from being under law ti being under grace? Is that when, the faith, came?

? Righteous Faith?

Some really, really want man to be responsible for his own righteousness.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Here is just one of several views concerning believing into Him.
How Do I Believe into Jesus Christ? - Holding to Truth

I have now read your link, and it states that there is a difference between believing Christ and believing 'into' Him, and that 'just' believing is merely to accept that He existed. This is mumbo-jumbo. If you believe someone, you believe that what he says is true.
Romans 4:3. 'For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted [credited, imputed] to him as righteousness."' Abraham did not believe 'into' God; nor did he believe 'on' God. He simply believed God - specifically His words to him - and of course Jesus Christ is God.
Obviously,just to believe that there was someone called Jesus of Nazareth who lived a long time ago and did lots of good stuff saves no one. But when we believe on His name - the LORD Jesus Christ - and trust in Him for salvation from our sins, we will be saved. There is no examination to discover if our faith is somehow good enough. Faith as small as a grain of mustard seed is quite good enough even if it is compassed about by doubt. To cry out to God, "Lord, I do believe! Help my unbelief!" (Mark 9:24) will be accepted by our Lord.

'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved' (Acts 16:31). This is in the Bible and therefore true and to be believed. There is not some magic formula of believing 'into' Christ.

'Let not conscience make you linger,
Nor of fitness fondly dream;
All the fitness He requireth
Is to feel your need of Him;
This He gives you;
'Tis the Spirit's rising beam!

Come, ye weary heavy-laden,
Bruised and broken by the Fall;
If you tarry till you're better,
You will never come at all.
Not the righteous -
Sinners Jesus came to call.'

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@percho,
Happy to discuss your post, which is on an interesting subject, but possibly slightly off-topic.
If the writer of the OP is happy I will respond, but maybe it will be best to start a new thread on the subject.

 

[Van]

Van said: ↑
No answer will be forthcoming as to why God credits the faith of some individuals.
Dave said:
Because they are His elect whom He foreknew, and to whom it is given to, by His grace, both to believe on Christ and to suffer for His sake ( Philippians 1:29 ).

Close, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13 when God chooses someone for salvation it is through faith, thus through credited faith. So individuals become "elect" when their faith is credited. Kinda obvious.

 

[Van]

Van said: ↑
No answer will be forthcoming as to "does God ask fallen individuals to put their faith in Christ?"
Dave said:
I'm not aware that He does.
If you know of a place in the Scriptures where God asks fallen men to believe on His Son, please show us.

See post #29, John 6:29. Now I know some will claim the work of God refers to what God does rather than what God asks of us, but such a view is untenable

 

[Van]

Through faith that is a gift which is not your own so that you cannot boast.
No matter how you slice it, faith is a gift from God because of his gracious salvation.
God is the cause and man is the effected party.

Talk about scripture nullification! When something is accomplished through something, the something through which something is accomplished must exist first. Duh

 

[Van]

I have now read your link, and it states that there is a difference between believing Christ and believing 'into' Him, and that 'just' believing is merely to accept that He existed. This is mumbo-jumbo. If you believe someone, you believe that what he says is true. SNIP'

Believing in something as true, like Jesus performed miracles, and committing to surrender your life to Jesus as your Lord and Savior are two different things.

For the umpteenth time, soils #2 and #3 believed the gospel to a degree but were not credited with righteous faith. This is kinda obvious.