Calvinism and the Unpardonable Sin

[taisto]

That is quite an accusation to level at a Christian brother (hate God) maybe even enough to get you suspended from the board. Be cautious brother.

My apologies if it is against the rules of the board.
How else can we view someone who detests the determinative will of God and looks to twist the Bible into an interpretation that makes man the one who causes God to act?
Is this not a rebellious and contentious act against the King of Kings and His sole authority to do as He pleases in our lives?

How can a person love God and hate His authority to do as He pleases in your life at the same time? I don't see how one can demand to be ruler of their life and still call Jesus Lord and ruler at the same time.

What am I missing? Do I just let another brother speak ill of the one who chose to save them by grace?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My apologies if it is against the rules of the board.
How else can we view someone who detests the determinative will of God and looks to twist the Bible into an interpretation that makes man the one who causes God to act?
Is this not a rebellious and contentious act against the King of Kings and His sole authority to do as He pleases in our lives?

How can a person love God and hate His authority to do as He pleases in your life at the same time? I don't see how one can demand to be ruler of their life and still call Jesus Lord and ruler at the same time.

What am I missing? Do I just let another brother speak ill of the one who chose to save them by grace?

This world houses both Monergist and Synergist brother, you know that. In these postmodern and increasingly post-Christian times, people are clamoring for attention. Don’t go there, maintain a level headed, calm demeanor… you will feel better for it and stay on the board.

 

[taisto]

This world houses both Monergist and Synergist brother, you know that. In these postmodern and increasingly post-Christian times, people are clamoring for attention. Don’t go there, maintain a level headed, calm demeanor… you will feel better for it and stay on the board.

I appreciate the advise.
When I smell sulphur, I will run rather than talk!

 

[Silverhair]

I know there,are Biblical claims. I personally have no source material for this alledged pagan roots.

Do some research, it is not had to find.

 

[Silverhair]

You are fond of leveling that at anyone who includes Doctrines of Grace in their faith & practices but you can’t verify it as genuine other than to repeat that as some sort of mantra. could it be you who is in error and just using those claims against the brethren as a weapon of no consequence?

You say you want truth then do the research. The only reason that a calvinist will not look is because they do not want to know the truth about the root of their theology. You are trusting in a man-made religion rather than the bible.

 

[Silverhair]

I would not say that anyone who practices Doctrines of Grace is a Calvinist but you do. No they do however believe in a theology that is exclusively God centered, not directed to self.

Now it’s predictable that you will implement a dialog designed to accuse and offend. Go ahead, I will give you the last word.

Well since the TULIP or DoG is a calvinist construct what would you suggest I call those that follow those views? I will leave the last word to you since it seems you do not want to search for the truth.

 

[Silverhair]

My apologies if it is against the rules of the board.
How else can we view someone who detests the determinative will of God and looks to twist the Bible into an interpretation that makes man the one who causes God to act?
Is this not a rebellious and contentious act against the King of Kings and His sole authority to do as He pleases in our lives?

How can a person love God and hate His authority to do as He pleases in your life at the same time? I don't see how one can demand to be ruler of their life and still call Jesus Lord and ruler at the same time.

What am I missing? Do I just let another brother speak ill of the one who chose to save them by grace?

There in lays your problem @taisto, you think that God has to determine/decree everything you do. For someone that claims to believe that God is sovereign you sure do not want to let Him be. He can only act as your calvinist philosophy determines He act.

This is your calvinism.
“If there is one single molecule in this universe running around loose, totally free of God’s sovereignty, then we have no guarantee that a single promise of God will ever be fulfilled.” R.C. Sproul, So non baptist calvinists say God controls everything

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass LBCF 1669 And here we see that the Baptist calvinist say God controls everything

And then as a calvinist you say that man is responsible for the sins he commits that God has decreed for him to do.

God is sovereign and in His sovereignty He has chosen to given man a free will so that he will be held responsible for the choices he freely makes. That is why Paul can say that man is without excuse. What better excuse could a man have than to say, sure I sin/reject God but God made me this way He determined everything about my life so I have no choice. That is where your determinism leads so you are welcome to it but I will trust the God of the bible not your false view of Him.

 

[kyredneck]

Obviously but let’s not throw stones. There is too much scripture to support either position. I just choose not to be contentious.

...puleeze, spare me and @taisto the sanctimony.

 

[Silverhair]

I appreciate the advise.
When I smell sulphur, I will run rather than talk!

Yes just trust the text of the bible.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction....And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.
Calvins Complete Commentary

Having been justified by faith we have access by faith into this grace. When we were still without strength Christ died for the ungodly while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
If when we were enemies we were reconciled to God having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I appreciate the advise.
When I smell sulphur, I will run rather than talk!

Look, both you &I confronted that RC guy in order to challenge him about RC stuff. There is nothing wrong with conflict to clear the air, however you don’t have to load the firearm over religious differences. Sufficient to deal with things calmly and collected, OK

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

...puleeze, spare me and @taisto the sanctimony.

Oh Larry, what ever do you mean?!?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well since the TULIP or DoG is a calvinist construct what would you suggest I call those that follow those views? I will leave the last word to you since it seems you do not want to search for the truth.

It’s a scriptural construct and I have found my truth thru that! May I suggest Children of God, Followers of the Way, Perhaps Christian Brothers! Where do you believe we are all ending up? Even my Roman Catholic family has value in the eyes of the Creator. Do you agree with this assessment?

 

[taisto]

Yes just trust the text of the bible.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction....And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.
Calvins Complete Commentary

Having been justified by faith we have access by faith into this grace. When we were still without strength Christ died for the ungodly while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
If when we were enemies we were reconciled to God having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him

Yes, just trust the Bible, sir.

"Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
(John 6:43-44)

" I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand."
(John 10:14-16,25-29)

 

[Silverhair]

It’s a scriptural construct and I have found my truth thru that! May I suggest Children of God, Followers of the Way, Perhaps Christian Brothers! Where do you believe we are all ending up? Even my Roman Catholic family has value in the eyes of the Creator. Do you agree with this assessment?

All those that have their faith in Christ Jesus for their salvation will be saved. So we will have differences as to how we understand the bible and that is why we have these, sometimes strong, disagreements on this and other boards. But at the end of the day we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

Bottom line for me is what does the bible say. That is my foundation.

As to the TULIP or DoG where you see it as a scriptural construct I see it as presenting error. But that's why we disagree.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, just trust the Bible, sir.

"Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
(John 6:43-44)

" I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand."
(John 10:14-16,25-29)

And I do not disagree with those verses, but calvinists strive to narrow down who can be saved and the bible does the opposite, it wants to expand the reach of the gospel to the whole world. That is God's stated desire:
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

But do yourself a favor and actually check out the foundations of your theology, it is not that hard to do. Once you have checked it out then decide how you want to deal with the information you have. Remember the truth does not care about your feelings.

 

[Silverhair]

I appreciate the advise.
When I smell sulphur, I will run rather than talk!

@taisto if you wonder why I stand against calvinism this book will give you some insight although it is not the only or even the main reason. If you are interested you can acquire the book on Amazon for $20 it is well worth the cost.

The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism, by Dr. Wilson

The “Methodology” for his thesis consisted of a reading of Augustine’s writings in chronological order along with comparing Augustine to Pauline, Patristic and other early church writings. The goal was to document Augustine’s introduction of Manichean determinism into Christian theology. Dr. Wilson demonstrates Augustine’s support of a free-will theology consistent with the early Church’s teaching. He shows that Augustine for much of his writings argued against determinism and used scripture to attack the Manichean view of scripture. At a point Augustine’s position on infant baptism was challenged by followers of Pelagia and he resorted to his Manichean roots to answer the challenge. Augustine had studied Manicheism for ten years. In defending his position of baptism Augustine adopted the Manichean misinterpretation of scriptures, the very interpretations he had opposed in his earlier writings. The result is that Augustine introduced Manichean determinism into Christianity. This was a major diversion from early church teaching. Luther and Calvin adopted this teaching leading, especially through Calvin, to today’s Reformed theology.

This work will not be easily dismissed. It dispels any argument that today’s TULIP i.e. Reformed theology is based on Patristic or scriptural teaching. Clearly todays Calvinism is the product of Manichean/Gnostic philosophy and its misinterpretation of scriptures. If you are Reformed, or you are leaning in that direction, I would encourage you to objectively read Dr. Wilson’s presentation. You owe it to yourself to understand the basis for your belief.

 

[taisto]

And I do not disagree with those verses, but calvinists strive to narrow down who can be saved and the bible does the opposite, it wants to expand the reach of the gospel to the whole world. That is God's stated desire:
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

But do yourself a favor and actually check out the foundations of your theology, it is not that hard to do. Once you have checked it out then decide how you want to deal with the information you have. Remember the truth does not care about your feelings.

Wrong, I open up to God saving anyone and all, if He so chooses to save them by grace.
It is not salvation by grace, however, if humans have to willfully soften their own hearts and display their self-determined will in order to be saved. You doctrine attempts to place man above God and empty salvation of grace by replacing it with human willpower.

So called Calvinists, by you, have been on the front lines of missions, spreading the good news of salvation by grace because God can save anyone He so chooses, without distinction.

So, all those verse you imagine as a difficulty for so called Calvinists, are actually fully embraced by so called Calvinists as the whole of scripture explains these verses to us.

It is clear you cannot see this or even imagine it to be true. I venture to guess it would destroy your prejudice against so called Calvinists.

Grace to you.

 

[taisto]

@taisto if you wonder why I stand against calvinism this book will give you some insight although it is not the only or even the main reason. If you are interested to can acquire the book on Amazon for $20 it is well worth the cost.

The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism, by Dr. Wilson

The “Methodology” for his thesis consisted of a reading of Augustine’s writings in chronological order along with comparing Augustine to Pauline, Patristic and other early church writings. The goal was to document Augustine’s introduction of Manichean determinism into Christian theology. Dr. Wilson demonstrates Augustine’s support of a free-will theology consistent with the early Church’s teaching. He shows that Augustine for much of his writings argued against determinism and used scripture to attack the Manichean view of scripture. At a point Augustine’s position on infant baptism was challenged by followers of Pelagia and he resorted to his Manichean roots to answer the challenge. Augustine had studied Manicheism for ten years. In defending his position of baptism Augustine adopted the Manichean misinterpretation of scriptures, the very interpretations he had opposed in his earlier writings. The result is that Augustine introduced Manichean determinism into Christianity. This was a major diversion from early church teaching. Luther and Calvin adopted this teaching leading, especially through Calvin, to today’s Reformed theology.

This work will not be easily dismissed. It dispels any argument that today’s TULIP i.e. Reformed theology is based on Patristic or scriptural teaching. Clearly todays Calvinism is the product of Manichean/Gnostic philosophy and its misinterpretation of scriptures. If you are Reformed, or you are leaning in that direction, I would encourage you to objectively read Dr. Wilson’s presentation. You owe it to yourself to understand the basis for your belief.

Who is Doctor Wilson that I should hold his opinion? Has he ever read the writings of the Prophets and Apostles in the Bible?

The basis for my belief is in the Bible. I have never read one line from Augustine. Please consider the very real possibility that so called Calvinism is actually fundamental Bible truths. It might change your prejudice.

 

[Silverhair]

Wrong, I open up to God saving anyone and all, if He so chooses to save them by grace.
It is not salvation by grace, however, if humans have to willfully soften their own hearts and display their self-determined will in order to be saved. You doctrine attempts to place man above God and empty salvation of grace by replacing it with human willpower.

So called Calvinists, by you, have been on the front lines of missions, spreading the good news of salvation by grace because God can save anyone He so chooses, without distinction.

So, all those verse you imagine as a difficulty for so called Calvinists, are actually fully embraced by so called Calvinists as the whole of scripture explains these verses to us.

It is clear you cannot see this or even imagine it to be true. I venture to guess it would destroy your prejudice against so called Calvinists.

Grace to you.

@taisto that you can read those verses and see calvinist determinism in them says a great deal about you. You seem to trust your calvinist philosophy rather than the inspired text of the bible.
Actually if you listen to the average calvinist preacher present the gospel he can not present calvinism but has to actually preach the biblical gospel. God desires all to be saved and Christ died so that all could be saved whereas your calvinism teaches that God does not desire all to be saved and Christ only died for a select few and you just have to hope you were in the number although you can never know if you were. God may just be fooling you so that you will suffer more in hell. Quite the theology you have there.

The Gospel call in Calvinism is not a well meant or sincere offer. Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God. Your own theology precludes this, but it seems you just do not want to acknowledge that fact.

 

[taisto]

@taisto that you can read those verses and see calvinist determinism in them says a great deal about you. You seem to trust your calvinist philosophy rather than the inspired text of the bible.
Actually if you listen to the average calvinist preacher present the gospel he can not present calvinism but has to actually preach the biblical gospel. God desires all to be saved and Christ died so that all could be saved whereas your calvinism teaches that God does not desire all to be saved and Christ only died for a select few and you just have to hope you were in the number although you can never know if you were. God may just be fooling you so that you will suffer more in hell. Quite the theology you have there.

The Gospel call in Calvinism is not a well meant or sincere offer. Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God. Your own theology precludes this, but it seems you just do not want to acknowledge that fact.

Silverhair, you can have the last word. You have become a clanging gong with your prejudiced words.