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Gaza terrorism by Israel

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by dad2, Oct 13, 2023.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Again, you are redefining "murder". You invoke God but at the same time denounce how God defined "murder". You are inventing definitions to suit your purposes.

    Exactly who are you suggesting goes into these buildings to make sure civilians have evacuated?

    Israel? No, the purpose for those strikes are to prepare for a ground assault.

    Hamas? No, they want civilian casualties and are encouraging people to remain in the buildings.

    The US? No, we also soften areas before sending in troops.

    Canada? I said they can go for it.

    The purpose of the strikes are to make ready for ground troops. Glad we're firing from those buildings.
     
    #81 JonC, Oct 14, 2023
  2. dad2

    dad2 Active Member

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    If you blow up an apartment full of people I call it murder. God would call it that also. Thou shall not kill. How about slay, you like that word better?
    Exodus 23:7
    Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.


    Maybe folks not so cowardly as to blow up the families and buildings? If an apartment in a US city had a terrorist in it and it was surrounded, could they not go in? You don't seem to care if there really is any terrorist in there or not.

    So you have to kill people in the apartments first? ' excuse us, mom that we just killed your 8 children, but we felt we had to soften up the place first'

    When I read of the convoys killed while fleeing from the air, the question arose, who would they have been better off listening to?

    It all depends on the area. If you are 'softening' up some densely populated area, for example that would be called an atrocity.
     
    #82 dad2, Oct 14, 2023
  3. xlsdraw

    xlsdraw Active Member

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    Pretty sure it is only Druze affiliated with Islam in the IDF. Not all Muslims are sold out to blood lust.

    I can assure you that as things progress that Israel will have trouble with their Israeli Muslims. They did to some degree two years ago with the last Gaza blowup.

    And as I have followed Israel daily and closely for the last 7 years, it's my calling. I can tell you that there has been a significant increase in murderous behavior by Israeli Muslims primarily against other Muslims. There spirit seems to be disturbed. The Israeli government has been catching a lot of criticism for not suppressing the Muslim on Muslim violence, as if that were even possible. Very similar to what we've been seeing in the black communities of Chicago. There's some serious disturbed spirit activity going on. I think you can see it in Ukraine also.

    Everything we're seeing is a spiritual war.
     
    #83 xlsdraw, Oct 14, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2023
  4. xlsdraw

    xlsdraw Active Member

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    I'm not trying to convince you of a thing.

    I knew that wasn't possible from your opening post.

    You perceive yourself more righteous than God himself. Everything I stated is scriptural.
     
    #84 xlsdraw, Oct 14, 2023
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, that is false. "Thou shall not kill" does not work either. While the word includes accidental killing, it specifically excludes killing during war.

    I understand that you have no issue with the children in Israel being beheaded, otherwise I would suspect that you would want Israel to prevent it from occurring. I get that many believe Jews are subhuman. But 20% are Muslim...I don't know why you dismiss those deaths.

    I also don't get your mentality - that if a nation is attacked by a government that places it's military with civilians they cannot defend themselves but must allow their children to be killed.


    You do realize that Hamas was firing rockets into Israel from those buildings....right?
     
    #85 JonC, Oct 14, 2023
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Druze are one non-Muslim minority. They make up 1.5% of Israel's population.

    Muslims make up 18% of Israel's population (Christians about 1.7%).
     
    #86 JonC, Oct 14, 2023
  7. dad2

    dad2 Active Member

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    #87 dad2, Oct 14, 2023
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, words have meaning and the words used in Scripture matter.

    Thou shall not kill does not mean killing in war. It does not mean killing an enemy that you happen upon (why....I'm not sure). It also does not mean only intentionally killing but includes accidents.

    You simply chose the wrong word and wrong biblical example.



    Bottom line is a nation has the right to defend itself, even if they are Jewish. A government housing their military structure among civilians, and firing rockets from apartment buildings, dies not mean that a nation has to allow that government to kill its children.

    Had Israel not taken out those positions, even though it meant civilians would be killed, there would have been many more civilians killed in Israel.



    Bottom line is you present Jewish lives, Jewish children, Jewish women, (as well as the Christians and Muslims living among them) as less than human and not worth defending.
     
    #88 JonC, Oct 14, 2023
  9. dad2

    dad2 Active Member

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    Maybe not in the context of His wars and His people. Just like the flood, many died but that was not murder. Not if some secular nation killed people, that is different. Israel today does not get to ride the coattails of Israel before it rejected it's Messiah and was put aside.


    It means man taking the life of others. Whether in a gang, a secular nation or an individual. Killing families is exactly murder. Abortion is murder. The time when God fought for Israel ended in case that is news and will not start again till they are saved.


    Not when they call defense the taking en masse of innocent lives.

    If you cannot tell who are the military and who are the women and children you have zero right to kill everyone. God wants the guilty, not the innocent punished in case that is news.

    Once it gets to a certain point things are not easily or quickly fixed. The problem is the tortured impoverished enslaved population. That is bound to come to a boil. You need to address the problems.When desperate fanatics among them commit crimes they should be punished, not some collective guilt racist thing.


    False. Bombing children is not defending it is offending. You must punish the guilty. Not the innocent.
     
    #89 dad2, Oct 14, 2023
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, this is a false idea. I am speaking of the word translated "kill" in the KJV and "murder" in modern translations.

    The word itself excludes killing in war. But it includes accidental killing in everyday life.

    You are simply wrong.

    Targeting children is indefensible.

    But that is not what we are talking about.

    You condemned Israel for targeting areas that were launching rockets into Israel, killing civilians, because civilians lived in those buildings where Hamas had set up the weaponry.

    Your conclusion is that Israel should have allowed Hamas to continue killing Israeli children because if Israel targeted those areas launching rockets into Israel then civilians could be killed.

    That is viewing Israeli children (Jews, Muslims, and Christians) as less than human.

    The Gaza government targeted civilians in Israel.
    Israel targeted the weapons launching rockets into Israel.
     
    #90 JonC, Oct 14, 2023
  11. dad2

    dad2 Active Member

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    Targeting civilians is not war. It is terrorism. If apartments full of kids are dead then call it what you like.



    Yes it is exactly what we are talking about.


    Whose word do we have to take for that? Every apartment blown up was some missile launching site? I wasn't born last night. How about the fleeing convoys were those missile launching sites too?

    No. My conclusion is that when they blow up an apartment they say it was or may have been a missile site. Prove it. Obviously missiles were fired from somewhere and near some apartments in mobile launchers and etc etc. Prove every apartment destroyed was an active missile launch site?

    No it is viewing the children being targeted as humans also.

    Don't try to hide under their skirts. Whatever they do or don't do is no excuse to level apartments and kill families.

    The proof for each apartment bombed is...??? We wait
     
    #91 dad2, Oct 14, 2023
  12. dad2

    dad2 Active Member

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    And killing the leaving convoys by air? They seem to be oppressed and prisoners and in poverty. Fenced in by barbed wire. The so called government was elected 17 years ago and has not much power. They can't even leave to visit people for example. Israel killed, they said 1500 of those 'government' Hamas terrorists inside Israel when they broke out of the fence.They seemed like desperate kids to me almost. How many apartment buildings that were blown to smithereens actually were used often to launch missiles and where is the evidence? Could they have used vehicles to launch and then move on? What concrete proof do you have that each apartment was a full time missile base? Let's see it. Prove for example that some buildings were not bombed just to ensure there was no high ground for snipers? What you fail to understand is that when children are bombed and apartments and convoys, who in God's green earth will believe anything said by those doing the killing?? That reminds me of the story about the dead guy near a police car. When asked how the guy died, the cop said the guy shot himself four times in the back and then once in his head.


    As I explained we can't take your word for it. Blowing up an apartment with people and then calling it a missile station is not cutting the mustard here.Prove it. Do you have a list of Hamas members as well? If you went in on the ground and shoot some kid claiming he was a Hamas terrorist, show the evidence. Right now Israel is seen as a nation bombing families and depriving them hatefully of basic necessities etc. I want to see solid absolute evidence that those fleeing convoys that were attacked by air were deserving of that! Most casualties were women and children, What monsters.
     
    #92 dad2, Oct 15, 2023
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    But you take Hamas' word for it.

    That is the interesting part, and a distinctive.

    Do we take Israel's word for it? In part, but we also take the observations from US journalists on the ground that Israel was targeting the source firing rockets into Israel.

    You choose to take Hamas' word for it (it is the Hamas report you linked us to).


    The bottom line is nobody needs to show you....or me. You accept Hamas and reject Israel (their reports). I reject Hamas and accept the Israeli reports that are inline with the AP and reports from the ground.


    There will always be two sides in these issues. There will always be a "Hamas" and an "Israel". And those sides will never agree.
     
    #93 JonC, Oct 15, 2023
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    And given the recovered Israeli bodies, and the torture they indicated ....I doubt this will just go away.


    What we can all agree on, and all morn, is the loss of life.

    I can't say what Israel should or should not do when defending itself against a government that uses unconventional warfare. We are not in Israel.

    Should they refrain from stopping Hamas because of civilian casualties? Canada and the US dies not operate that way, so how can we demand it if Israel?

    In Afghanistan when our service members were fired upon by enemies in a building those buildings were taken out....even though there were also civilians in those buildings.

    The reason is our respective nations have a responsibility to protect their citizens (to include their citizens serving in the military).

    But we can morn with those on both sides who have list family members, and we can understand the rage from both sides.
     
    #94 JonC, Oct 15, 2023
  15. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    I say it's war.
    You remember God commanding destruction of all men, women, children, infants, cattle, etc etc? I do.
     
    #95 Reynolds, Oct 15, 2023
  16. dad2

    dad2 Active Member

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    I have a poetic question to pose to Christian psators who ask us to support Israel today.



    Chosen

    You say you are God's chosen,
    and the apple of His eye?
    As you maim and kill the mothers,
    and let the babies die!

    Will you blast away their houses,
    turn their cities into dust,
    Then starve the poor survivors,
    because you think you're just?

    You say that God is with you,
    that He sends you to destroy?
    Well I say that you're a liar,
    and it's Satan who's your boy!

    For though your prophets bless you,
    and your judges all agree
    God in Heaven fights against you!
    He has heard the needy's plea!

    You say you are God's people,
    nevermore to be believed
    In the synogogue of Satan,
    Till the end you'll stay decieved!
     
    #96 dad2, Oct 15, 2023
  17. dad2

    dad2 Active Member

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    Not from secular Israel!!! He tells them nothing any more. They are estranged. Since Jesus there is a new deal. He now uses Christians to reach the world. Later, when He takes us away, Israel will have a time when He again deals with them. Nothing they do now is ordered by God to say the least.
     
    #97 dad2, Oct 15, 2023
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree that most of Israel are lost.
    But I do believe that God has use of Israel as a nation.

    Regardless of Israel as it is now, Israel was the nation God chose. And Paul still gives an importance to national Jews insofar as God gave to them His Law.

    Now....does Israel comprise "God's people"?

    I'd argue that the nation of Israel, while the nation God chose and promised to bless, does not constitute God's people. It is only those who believe who have the right to be called "children of God".

    From a historical perspective it is amazing that Jews even exist (they were without a land for two thousand years, yet somehow maintained a national identity). I attribute this to God.


    Then we look at Israel as a nation.
    It is about 70% Jews, 20% Muslim, 2% Christian, 1.5% Druze.....and they live together.
    But Palestine holds that Israel has no right to exist.
    Gaza holds that all Jews should be killed.
    Iran holds that Israel should be destroyed.
    Hezbollah holds that Jews and Christians should be destroyed.


    The idea that Israel are children of Satan is not true.
    Some are, as all of us before we were saved belonged to Satan.
    But about 200,000 of those Israelites are Christian.

    We have to remember that many of those who belonged to the "synagogue of Satan" ended up belonging to the Kingdom of God. Paul is one of those men.
     
    #98 JonC, Oct 15, 2023
  19. dad2

    dad2 Active Member

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    ? What use is that?

    They are important and can get saved and be an important part of the family. One day they all will be saved and then God will give them all the promised land. Until then, He has not given it to them. Nor will He protect them until then.

    They are a wayward unbelieving people now. Not eligible for the promises right now.

    Sounds about right

    That they exist around the world is amazing. That they took part of the promised land, thereby causing a lot of suffering for many including His people, I do not attribute to God. He is not like that.


    Very few believers then in that country.

    I agree that it does not now have protection from Good and He did not yet bring them there. Simply going there in unbelief (as He knew they would) and pushing people away to call it Israel does not give it a right to be there as far as I can see. Believing in Jesus is what will give them the right one day.

    God disagrees. They are overruled.

    God disagrees...we'll see who gets destroyed!
    If wishes were horses....

    How about the Pharisees that Jesus said were? We should accept that they were. So unsaved people today of the same heritage? Many of them must be not of God, because He will allow most of them to be killed.


    Bingo. Not only that but many are His children who are just not saved yet we would assume since all Israel will be saved in the future as a nation.

    I am not sure the phrase synagogue of Satan in Revelation referred to all synagogues? But yes, let's hope they change synagogues!
     
    #99 dad2, Oct 15, 2023
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I believe that God is involved in the establishment of Israel.

    We can't ignore that God considered Israel a chosen nation even when they were a wicked, unbelieving and rebellious nation.

    What do we do with that? We pray for Israel...not for what the nation is now but for what it will/could be.


    Do I believe Israel should strike Hamas? I believe they have to. Those rockets and IED's are being made in apartment buildings. They have to strike and then go in because they have a responsibility to protect their citizens.


    Since those munitions were confiscated, and since the bodies that have been recovered indicated extreme torture (rape, cutting off body parts before shooting, children with their heads cut off), I do not see a diplomatic solution.

    I anticipate Israel entering Gaza and deaths occuring on both sides. I anticipate Hezbollah with Iran's support striking Israel.


    I mentioned that this is not a holy war. You are right that some may preach it is. But man's war is not holy. Christians are not called to this type of fight.

    I just do not see that Israel has an option.
     
    #100 JonC, Oct 15, 2023
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