What does "The Limited Atonement" actually proclaim? What are the Scriptural Proofs?

[DaveXR650]

What I still do not understand from your position is how you do not see that the person choosing what you call "doing what you most want to do" is just the person having made the free will choice to do just that. Whatever the person had chosen to do would logically be doing what they most wanted to do.

This is really nerdy and not truly important but yes I agree with your above statement. But what I gather from that is that your choice is based on you evaluating all the various impulses, desires, convictions, morals and so on that are acting upon your mind and out of that evaluation comes your free choice. If God himself influences your desires and convicts you so that you make a different free choice than you would have without him then you are still freely choosing. But now the influence has changed enough to affect your will. A Calvinist says this is decisive, some even say it is the result of prior regeneration. An Arminian would say it is not decisive and that you can still choose the wrong path. What confuses me is that Calvinist theologians who adamantly insist on overpowering grace also preach that you can blow it by refusing or ignoring this grace. I have no answer for that seeming conflict. Not that there isn't one, but I don't know the answer. And most of the Calvinists on here simply condemn someone who doesn't agree with everything they say, and just keep repeating a statement from their own documents rather than engage a question.

My best attempt to answer would be to say that the work of the Spirit is directly on our will so we can sense no action other than our doing what we are choosing to do. The Spirit's work is so intricate with our own self and will that we cannot discern what is happening. I think that is why free will and God's sovereignty are asserted at the same time. I do not find it wrong as a human to state two truths and say they cannot be resolved. I think it is possibly the only honest way to avoid error one way or the other. Spurgeon, who seems to be able to straddle Calvinism and still preach what sounds like a free will doctrine has been attributed to saying it's like if you are a wheel. God puts his hand on the wheel and moves it but the spokes, which represent your own will, move right along and in unison with the wheel, at exactly the same time.

There is no requirement that I know of that you have to agree with that though.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Just stating that if followed as held by Hyper calvinism, would be no great Missions movement, as all of the saved will get saved period by God.

How will my community in New Jersey ever possibly survive without any emphasis on the risen Christ being preached in the churches … and these churches are really a complete mess from any competent gospel preaching church….in fact there is very little or any gospel being taught so people don’t even know what sacrifices Christ endured for them. Like one church last year released balloons in the air for Easter to signify Christ descending to heaven while another has a Bible study using syllabus written by an atheist, while another no longer uses the Bible during services and rebrands themselves as a community center rather than a church….and I could go on, and on and on, it you get the picture right. Now my particular church in Florida has promised to go to NJ and help these apostates to preach and teach Christ…kind of a retrenchment focused on the Gospel. So tell me, isn’t that serving the Lord?

 

[Silverhair]

This is really nerdy and not truly important but yes I agree with your above statement. But what I gather from that is that your choice is based on you evaluating all the various impulses, desires, convictions, morals and so on that are acting upon your mind and out of that evaluation comes your free choice. If God himself influences your desires and convicts you so that you make a different free choice than you would have without him then you are still freely choosing. But now the influence has changed enough to affect your will. A Calvinist says this is decisive, some even say it is the result of prior regeneration. An Arminian would say it is not decisive and that you can still choose the wrong path. What confuses me is that Calvinist theologians who adamantly insist on overpowering grace also preach that you can blow it by refusing or ignoring this grace. I have no answer for that seeming conflict. Not that there isn't one, but I don't know the answer. And most of the Calvinists on here simply condemn someone who doesn't agree with everything they say, and just keep repeating a statement from their own documents rather than engage a question.

My best attempt to answer would be to say that the work of the Spirit is directly on our will so we can sense no action other than our doing what we are choosing to do. The Spirit's work is so intricate with our own self and will that we cannot discern what is happening. I think that is why free will and God's sovereignty are asserted at the same time. I do not find it wrong as a human to state two truths and say they cannot be resolved. I think it is possibly the only honest way to avoid error one way or the other. Spurgeon, who seems to be able to straddle Calvinism and still preach what sounds like a free will doctrine has been attributed to saying it's like if you are a wheel. God puts his hand on the wheel and moves it but the spokes, which represent your own will, move right along and in unison with the wheel, at exactly the same time.

There is no requirement that I know of that you have to agree with that though.

I guess we can all be a bit nerdy by times.

Wherever the influence comes from be it God or man in the final analysis it is still the man that has to make the choice. As you say the Calvinist would call God's influence decisive but would they call the influence of man decisive? If not why not?

That is the stumbling stone they have placed before themselves. Some struggle so hard to avoid man's free will that they then make God responsible for those that reject Him. This is what the bible says
Heb_11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
But according to Calvinism man cannot believe in let alone seek God unless God first makes it possible for them to do so.
Granted you say you do not agree with that view in Calvinism.

Why would you think that God's sovereignty and man's free will can not be resolved? I have read the bible for over sixty five years and until I came across this Calvinist/Arminian spat I had not heard of it as being a problem.
I fail to see the conflict.

When you think through what Spurgeon said the free will that the person has is actually just a pseudo free will. Man has no ability to do other than what God has determined for him to do.

When you think about it, why would anyone come to trust in God for their salvation?
1] They must have knowledge. “How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?” I need to be informed of a fact before I can possibly believe it.
2] They must accept the information as being true.
3] They must believe that God is trustworthy.

To quote Charles Spurgeon
"Faith is believing that Christ is what He is said to be, and that He will do what He has promised to do, and then to expect this of Him."

 

[DaveXR650]

Wherever the influence comes from be it God or man in the final analysis it is still the man that has to make the choice. As you say the Calvinist would call God's influence decisive but would they call the influence of man decisive? If not why not?

That is the stumbling stone they have placed before themselves. Some struggle so hard to avoid man's free will that they then make God responsible for those that reject Him.

Well, here is J.C. Ryle:
"Would you know the reason why thousands of so-called Christians will be lost at last, and perish miserably in hell." Now, let me interrupt his quote and say, what is the standard theological answer a modern Calvinist would give? They were not elect, or effectively called, or regenerated is the obvious answer. But I continue the quote, without editing, from where I left off:
"They will not be able to say that God did not offer salvation to them. They will not be able to plead that Christ did not send them invitations. Oh no! They will be obliged to confess that 'all things were ready' for them, except their own hearts. Their own hearts will prove to be the cause of their ruin! The lifeboat was along side the wreak, but they would not enter in. Christ 'would' have gathered them, but they 'would not' be gathered (Matthew 23:37). Christ would have saved them but they would not be saved. 'They loved darkness more than light'. Their hearts were in fault. 'They would not come to Christ that they might have life'(John 3:19;John 5:40)."

And the funny thing is I can show you equivalent sermons from Jonathan Edwards and John Owen as well as Spurgeon. So I guess you have to make of it what you will but I have to admit that there has to be some room here for mans free will. I understand that the problem is obviously our free will in the first place so I'm not ruling out the necessity of the Holy Spirit at all but I have to say that I have problems with 2 areas of Calvinism. One is that because of the above I cannot accept that there is a functional or inherent difference in the atonement for the elect versus everyone else. And the other would be that as shown above the people not saved are obviously not saved because they are resisting God's grace. Unless J.C. Ryle is pulling my leg he is saying clearly above that the only reason those mentioned are not saved is that they refused. Now maybe God pushes all of us who get saved in a way that is essential to the point where without it we could not have been saved. Nevertheless; it is clear from the above that in Ryle's view, there are plenty of cases where enough was done for a person so that God judicially has decided not to keep pushing them and he allowed them to perish.

I personally think many people who are Calvinists in a practical sense go by the last statement above. What they are saying then is that the grace was indeed overcoming in the case of those of us saved. (As in without it we could not have been saved). I would agree with that. But I would say that those who are not saved are not saved because of what is described above whereas the modern Calvinist would say that the difference was that God did not sovereignly apply overcoming grace to that person. And I'm sorry, but I think God did give grace, and it was refused, and God did not have his primary will done because he really did want them to be saved. His will was done in that he gave sufficient grace but it was refused and at some point he withdrew the offer. And it was totally the man's fault.

Sorry to ramble on. And I could be completely wrong.

 

[Silverhair]

Well, here is J.C. Ryle:
"Would you know the reason why thousands of so-called Christians will be lost at last, and perish miserably in hell." Now, let me interrupt his quote and say, what is the standard theological answer a modern Calvinist would give? They were not elect, or effectively called, or regenerated is the obvious answer. But I continue the quote, without editing, from where I left off:
"They will not be able to say that God did not offer salvation to them. They will not be able to plead that Christ did not send them invitations. Oh no! They will be obliged to confess that 'all things were ready' for them, except their own hearts. Their own hearts will prove to be the cause of their ruin! The lifeboat was along side the wreak, but they would not enter in. Christ 'would' have gathered them, but they 'would not' be gathered (Matthew 23:37). Christ would have saved them but they would not be saved. 'They loved darkness more than light'. Their hearts were in fault. 'They would not come to Christ that they might have life'(John 3:19;John 5:40)."

And the funny thing is I can show you equivalent sermons from Jonathan Edwards and John Owen as well as Spurgeon. So I guess you have to make of it what you will but I have to admit that there has to be some room here for mans free will. I understand that the problem is obviously our free will in the first place so I'm not ruling out the necessity of the Holy Spirit at all but I have to say that I have problems with 2 areas of Calvinism. One is that because of the above I cannot accept that there is a functional or inherent difference in the atonement for the elect versus everyone else. And the other would be that as shown above the people not saved are obviously not saved because they are resisting God's grace. Unless J.C. Ryle is pulling my leg he is saying clearly above that the only reason those mentioned are not saved is that they refused. Now maybe God pushes all of us who get saved in a way that is essential to the point where without it we could not have been saved. Nevertheless; it is clear from the above that in Ryle's view, there are plenty of cases where enough was done for a person so that God judicially has decided not to keep pushing them and he allowed them to perish.

I personally think many people who are Calvinists in a practical sense go by the last statement above. What they are saying then is that the grace was indeed overcoming in the case of those of us saved. (As in without it we could not have been saved). I would agree with that. But I would say that those who are not saved are not saved because of what is described above whereas the modern Calvinist would say that the difference was that God did not sovereignly apply overcoming grace to that person. And I'm sorry, but I think God did give grace, and it was refused, and God did not have his primary will done because he really did want them to be saved. His will was done in that he gave sufficient grace but it was refused and at some point he withdrew the offer. And it was totally the man's fault.

Sorry to ramble on. And I could be completely wrong.

Actually I would say that you are correct. God has made and will continue to make the offer of salvation because He desires that all should be saved. Those that will just humble themselves and trust in the one who makes that offer will be saved but the reality is that many will spurn the offer in the vain attempt to earn their salvation or do not think they need to be saved.

My dad would have said it this way.
We as Christians look to God and say "Thy will be done"
God looks at mankind and says "Thy will be done"

Now does God get to the point where He says I have tried and tried but no more, I do not know. I have to trust that His love has no limits.

Would God forgive the hardened sinner or even the devil or his demons if they would truly love Christ and repent, it is not my place to say.
But such is the love of God I have to agree with Augustine in this quote:
“There is no saint without a past, no sinner without a future.”

There is no one beyond the reach of the love of God.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

Actually I would say that you are correct. God has made and will continue to make the offer of salvation because He desires that all should be saved. Those that will just humble themselves and trust in the one who makes that offer will be saved but the reality is that many will spurn the offer in the vain attempt to earn their salvation or do not think they need to be saved.

Salvation isnt an offer, its an accomplished fact for all the elect of God through Jesus Christ, and its freely given them, not offered, and thats how it should be proclaimed. The ones its accomplished for will be regenerated by the Spirit and given the Gift of Faith to believe in Jesus, who accomplished their salvation.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



Salvation isnt an offer, its an accomplished fact for all the elect of God through Jesus Christ, and its freely given them, not offered, and thats how it should be proclaimed. The ones its accomplished for will be regenerated by the Spirit and given the Gift of Faith to believe in Jesus, who accomplished their salvation.

I have to ask where do you come up with these strange ideas? They are not biblical so they have to come from your imagination or someone told.

You just will not trust what the bible says will you.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners,

Are you saying that only your elect were sinners? And by the way "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" that's the gift of salvation and it is offer to all.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

You do seem to ignore scripture most of the time. Note the order heard the gospel then believed and were sealed/reborn by the Holy Spirit. But I doubt that you will actually believe what the bible says as it conflicts with your man made theology.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

I have to ask where do you come up with these strange ideas?

The strange ideas is saying Salvation is an offer, thats nowhere in scripture,it comes from the darkened minds of men

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair


The strange ideas is saying Salvation is an offer, thats nowhere in scripture,it comes from the darkened minds of men

If you do not understand that salvation is an offer then you have missed what the bible says.

 

[Brightfame52]

If you do not understand that salvation is an offer then you have missed what the bible says.

Again that offer stuff is foreign to scripture, Salvation is never offered,its given as a free gift to the heirs Heb 1:14

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

 

[Silverhair]

Again that offer stuff is foreign to scripture, Salvation is never offered,its given as a free gift to the heirs Heb 1:14

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

You show your view is wrong in your own post. A gift is offer to someone they do not have to accept it. They would be foolish to reject the offer of salvation but many do. Those that do accept the gift through faith in the risen Christ will be saved.
Tit_2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
Are all men heirs? Are they all saved?

Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
The gift is offered but we still have to accept it. God does not force anyone to come to Him.

It is a gift because we cannot earn it and we do not deserve it.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Rom_10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Those that remain faithful will inherit salvation at the return of Christ.
1Pe 1:5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:9 receiving the end of your faith; the salvation of your souls.

 

[Brightfame52]

You show your view is wrong in your own post. A gift is offer to someone they do not have to accept it. They would be foolish to reject the offer of salvation but many do. Those that do accept the gift through faith in the risen Christ will be saved.
Tit_2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
Are all men heirs? Are they all saved?

Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
The gift is offered but we still have to accept it. God does not force anyone to come to Him.

It is a gift because we cannot earn it and we do not deserve it.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Rom_10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Those that remain faithful will inherit salvation at the return of Christ.
1Pe 1:5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:9 receiving the end of your faith; the salvation of your souls.

Again that offer stuff is foreign to scripture, Salvation is never offered,its given as a free gift to the heirs Heb 1:14

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

They are given Salvation because they are Heirs of Promise Heb 6:17

Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

Do you know what an heir is ?

 

[Silverhair]

Again that offer stuff is foreign to scripture, Salvation is never offered,its given as a free gift to the heirs Heb 1:14

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

They are given Salvation because they are Heirs of Promise Heb 6:17

Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

Do you know what an heir is ?

Do you know what an heir is ?

One is only an heir if they accept the offered gift of salvation. If they reject the offer then they would not be an heir would they.

That is why salvation is conditional.
Joh 3:14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

 

[Brightfame52]

Do you know what an heir is ?

One is only an heir if they accept the offered gift of salvation. If they reject the offer then they would not be an heir would they.

That is why salvation is conditional.
Joh 3:14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

An Heir inherits,its not offered to them. God has promised it[salvation/eternal life to them. It was promised to the heirs before the world began Titus 1:1-2

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

1 Jn 2:25

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Gal 3:16-18

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance[eternal salvation] be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

If they reject the offer

Being an heir isnt an offer. For example Isaac was born an heir according to Gods promise Gen 15 4

And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

Now was Isaac offered to be an heir ? Could he reject being an heir after God promised he would be ? Think carefully now

 

[Silverhair]

An Heir inherits,its not offered to them. God has promised it[salvation/eternal life to them. It was promised to the heirs before the world began Titus 1:1-2

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

1 Jn 2:25

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Gal 3:16-18

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance[eternal salvation] be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

The heirs, those that believe, are only heirs if they accept the gift that is offered to them, salvation. If the reject the offer would you still call them heirs?

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



Being an heir isnt an offer. For example Isaac was born an heir according to Gods promise Gen 15 4

And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

Now was Isaac offered to be an heir ? Could he reject being an heir after God promised he would be ? Think carefully now

Do you actually read the things you write before you post them? Issac was the heir of Abraham because he was the son of Abraham. Isaac & Ishmael were both natural born heirs of Abraham. Just as my son is my heir.

The only ones that will be heirs of God are those that trust in Him. So while you have no control over who your parents are you do have a choice over whether or not you will trust in God and thus are then a child of God.
Joh_1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

It's obvious you do not understand the difference between natural birth and spiritual birth.

 

[Brightfame52]

The heirs, those that believe, are only heirs if they accept the gift that is offered to them, salvation. If the reject the offer would you still call them heirs?

An heir is an heir b4 they become a believer. Isaac was an heir b4 he was born a sinner like everyone else,but bcause he was an heir of salvation ,his new birth and faith was certain. Nothing was offered Isaac, and all believers are as Isaac was, children of promise, heirs Gal 4:28

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

 

[Brightfame52]

Do you actually read the things you write before you post them? Issac was the heir of Abraham because he was the son of Abraham. Isaac & Ishmael were both natural born heirs of Abraham. Just as my son is my heir.

The only ones that will be heirs of God are those that trust in Him. So while you have no control over who your parents are you do have a choice over whether or not you will trust in God and thus are then a child of God.
Joh_1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

It's obvious you do not understand the difference between natural birth and spiritual birth.

Those who believed on Christ, received Him were born again heirs of salvation, but they were heirs b4 they were born of God.

 

[Silverhair]

An heir is an heir b4 they become a believer. Isaac was an heir b4 he was born a sinner like everyone else,but bcause he was an heir of salvation ,his new birth and faith was certain. Nothing was offered Isaac, and all believers are as Isaac was, children of promise, heirs Gal 4:28

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Isaac was to be the human heir of Abraham even before he was born. He was an heir through natural birth. We are only children of God, heirs of the kingdom, after we have trusted in Jesus Christ. We are only heirs of God through Spiritual rebirth.
God has set a condition for becoming a child of God, FAITH in the risen Christ Jesus.
Joh_1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:


You are confusing natural and Spiritual heirs.