What does "The Limited Atonement" actually proclaim? What are the Scriptural Proofs?

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

Isaac & Ishmael were both natural born heirs of Abraham

False, being an heir is spiritual, and ishmael wasnt an heir neither was his mother , you dont read Gal 4:29-30

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

 

[Silverhair]

Those who believed on Christ, received Him were born again heirs of salvation, but they were heirs b4 they were born of God.

The bible disagrees with your view BF.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

Isaac was to be the human heir of Abraham even before he was born. He was an heir through natural birth.

Sorry its spiritual heir, thats why he had to be born after the Spirit Gal 429

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Also all the heirs of salvation start off naturally born, but they will be born again spiritually, thats part of their inheritance

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



Sorry its spiritual heir, thats why he had to be born after the Spirit Gal 429

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Also all the heirs of salvation start off naturally born, but they will be born again spiritually, thats part of their inheritance

Sorry BF one is only a spiritual heir if they believe. Ishmael Gal_4:23 mocked Isaac, and it has always been true that those born of the flesh have persecuted those born of the Spirit which is synonymous with “according to the promise” in the previous verse. Gal 4:28

You have gotten part of it right, we all start out with a natural birth and those that believe will have a spiritual birth and thus become heirs/children of God.

Being born of believing parents does not mean you inherit their salvation. Each person must freely trust in Christ Jesus for their own salvation.

You really do not understand salvation if you think it is part of your inheritance.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

Sorry BF one is only a spiritual heir if they believe

Thats false, they are a spiritual heir b4 they believe, but they are guaranteed to believe by the Gift of Faith. One is an heir of salvation from their mothers womb as was Isaac Heb 1:14

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Gal 4:1-8

Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

There was a time when the heir was spiritually dead, unconverted and knew not God, but they were still " the heir" and in due time because they were redeemed by Christs death, they will receive the gift of the Spirit in their heart [regeneration]and then begin their spiritual life as an spiritual heir in fellowship with God through Christ.

Nevertheless Gal 4:1 proves they were a spiritual heir before converted to Faith in Christ

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



Thats false, they are a spiritual heir b4 they believe, but they are guaranteed to believe by the Gift of Faith. One is an heir of salvation from their mothers womb as was Isaac Heb 1:14

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Gal 4:1-8

Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

There was a time when the heir was spiritually dead, unconverted and knew not God, but they were still " the heir" and in due time because they were redeemed by Christs death, they will receive the gift of the Spirit in their heart [regeneration]and then begin their spiritual life as an spiritual heir in fellowship with God through Christ.

Nevertheless Gal 4:1 proves they were a spiritual heir before converted to Faith in Christ

BF your logic is flawed.

I was the natural heir of my father as I am His child. We become the spiritual heir of God when we become His child through faith in His risen Son. Those that reject Christ are not heirs of God are they?

Verses 4 & 5 which you conveniently overlook shows you your error.
Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
Gal 4:5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Note Christ has to redeem them before they are adopted as sons/become heirs. And who are the redeemed? It cannot be all Jews as not all believe in Him or all Gentiles for the same reason. So there must be a condition for one's redemption and there is, FAITH in Him.

Those that trust in Him are redeemed and thus become heirs of God as they are now children of God. You cannot be a spiritual heir prior to being spiritually reborn.

Joh_1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

 

[Brightfame52]

BF your logic is flawed.

I was the natural heir of my father as I am His child. We become the spiritual heir of God when we become His child through faith in His risen Son. Those that reject Christ are not heirs of God are they?

Verses 4 & 5 which you conveniently overlook shows you your error.
Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
Gal 4:5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Note Christ has to redeem them before they are adopted as sons/become heirs. And who are the redeemed? It cannot be all Jews as not all believe in Him or all Gentiles for the same reason. So there must be a condition for one's redemption and there is, FAITH in Him.

Those that trust in Him are redeemed and thus become heirs of God as they are now children of God. You cannot be a spiritual heir prior to being spiritually reborn.

Joh_1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Gal 4 :1 shows that the heir was an heir prior to the Spirit being given to them v6

6 And because ye are sons[Heirs], God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

 

[Silverhair]

Gal 4 :1 shows that the heir was an heir prior to the Spirit being given to them v6

6 And because ye are sons[Heirs], God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

BF it is obvious that you do not understand the difference between a natural heir and a spiritual heir.

When you figure that out then you will see the error of your view.

Here is a clue for you
Natural son of human parents
Gal 4:1 Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything,

Spiritual son reborn of the Holy Spirit
Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
Gal 4:5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Gal 4:6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

Because we are reborn of the Spirit we can call God "Abba! Father!"
As children of God we are now heirs in the kingdom of God. The Spirit does not indwell us until we believe in Christ.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

BF it is obvious that you do not understand the difference between a natural heir and a spiritual heir.

This isn't about anything natural, its about heirs of salvation, its spiritual Heb 1:14

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

This goes for men or women who will be saved, they were heirs

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

@Silverhair




This isn't about anything natural, its about heirs of salvation, its spiritual Heb 1:14

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

This goes for men or women who will be saved, they were heirs

I like this from Al Mohler

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair




This isn't about anything natural, its about heirs of salvation, its spiritual Heb 1:14

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

This goes for men or women who will be saved, they were heirs

I do think you are finally getting it BF. While God desires all to be saved, to become heirs, it is only those that freely trust in Him that will be His heirs.

Rom 4:13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if those who are of the law {works} are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect,

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, {Jews} but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all {those who believe}

So we see that contrary to what you posted
Brightfame52 said:
" Gal 4 :1 shows that the heir was an heir prior to the Spirit being given to them v6"

BF it is obvious that you do not understand the difference between a natural heir Gal 4:1 and a spiritual heir Gal 4:6.

Abraham had physical/natural heirs {Gal 4:1} but no one is an heir, in the spiritual since, {Gal 4:6} prior to them trusting in Christ.
The promise to Abraham was not through circumcision (Romans 4:9-12) nor through the law (Romans 4:13-16), but through the righteousness of faith.

Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

I do think you are finally getting it BF.

But you dont, Salvation is for Heirs, its their inheritance Heb 9:12-15

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

 

[Silverhair]

I like this from Al Mohler

I listened to Mohler a couple of times and note that at the 0:54 mark he said "whatsoever what is real is agency and that's a philosophical term but it might be helpful so we are we have agency we have real agency and in that sense we have something we could call Free Will"

So I looked up the definition of Agency at dictionary.com

{Agency the state of being in action or of exerting power; the agency of divine Providence.} God
{the capacity to act or exert power: We may have our free agency, but we are responsible for our choices.} Mankind

Mohler's attempt to put a philosophical spin on the term agency {0:58} when used in relation to God or man and the choices they make seems a tad disingenuous.

He veered off to a discussion on the sovereignty of God {2:21} and His being omniscient. He then makes a logical error when he says "he's not omniscient therefore he Wills he's he will Wills therefore he's omniscient" {2:55} God did not need any of creation to exist for Him to be sovereign just as He does not have to will something for Him to be omniscient.

Logically if we follow Mohler's line of thinking then for God to be omniscient and sovereign He has to will all things that happen. God cannot know of anything that He did not will according to Mohler.

Mohler does make a true statement that God knows all that will happen throughout eternity, no surprises. But then he takes that to mean that God has to limit the agency/free will. By implication he is saying God has to determine your choice. What he seems to miss is that God is sovereign and omniscient. God can and has given man a free will and God being omniscient knows what those free will choices will be. But God does not cause those free will choices or they would not be free will would they.

Mohler used the example of someone committing a crime, shoplifting. {3:43} But note he says that was done by that persons agency/free will. Did God know he would do that, of course. Did God cause him to do that, No. Why because the person has agency/free will. Just as those that trust in Christ Jesus have agency/free will as Mohler had already told the woman. "what is real is agency" {0:54} and again "you really did make that choice and sometimes it's a hard choice ... so your agency is real" {3:25}

Starting at the {4:42} Mohler says we have to hear the gospel message and believe it and trust in Christ to be saved. He then says God is sovereign first and our agency/free will is second. Which is true. God being sovereign has given man agency/free will with which to choose to trust in or reject Him and will respect those choices.

God is no less sovereign in a world where he chooses to grant his creatures agency/free will than he is in a world where he determines everything.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



But you dont, Salvation is for Heirs, its their inheritance Heb 9:12-15

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

BF you just will not accept what the bible says will you. Do you think Paul got it wrong?

The heirs you see in scripture that have salvation are those, Jews or Greeks, that have freely trusted in Christ. No matter who they are if they do not believe they are not an heir of God and they do not have salvation as a future promise.

Being a natural heir does not save anyone. All have the potential of becoming a Spiritual heir of God but only through faith.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF you just will not accept what the bible says will you. Do you think Paul got it wrong?

The heirs you see in scripture that have salvation are those, Jews or Greeks, that have freely trusted in Christ. No matter who they are if they do not believe they are not an heir of God and they do not have salvation as a future promise.

Being a natural heir does not save anyone. All have the potential of becoming a Spiritual heir of God but only through faith.

Lol Paul doesnt have it wrong you do. Salvation is for Heirs,its their inheritance from their testaor Christ, and it brings all the Spiritual blessings to save the heirs, thats why His death was necessary Heb 9:15-16

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

They become believers because they were Heirs !

Faith to believe is part of their inheritance !

 

[Silverhair]

Lol Paul doesnt have it wrong you do. Salvation is for Heirs,its their inheritance from their testaor Christ, and it brings all the Spiritual blessings to save the heirs, thats why His death was necessary Heb 9:15-16

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

They become believers because they were Heirs !

Faith to believe is part of their inheritance !

BF you keep making these claims but you have not provided any clear scripture that supports such a view.

Your comment "They become believers because they were Heirs " is in total opposition to scripture.

We are only children of God, heirs of the kingdom, after we have trusted in Jesus Christ. We are only heirs of God through Spiritual rebirth.
Joh_1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

You then say "Faith to believe is part of their inheritance " but this again is just a view based on philosophy not scripture.

I know that you and David Lamb believe what you posted but the bible does not support your view.

Think through what you are claiming here BF. The bible tells us we are all heirs of Abraham. Some through law others through faith. But faith is not inherited.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

BF you keep making these claims but you have not provided any clear scripture that supports such a view.

Oh its been provided, you just cant see it nor understand it. Salvation is limited to and given to the Heirs of Salvation. Now because they are heirs, they are given as part of their inheritance Faith to believe, so Peter writes 2 Pet 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

That word obtained is an inheritance word, its the greek word lagchanó:
to obtain by lot, to receive, to be allotted

The Greek verb "lagchanó" primarily means to obtain or receive something by the casting of lots. In the context of the New Testament, it often refers to the divine or providential allocation of roles, responsibilities, or inheritances. The term implies a sense of receiving something not by personal merit or effort, but by a process that is beyond human control, often seen as guided by God's will. Strong's Greek: 2975. λαγχάνω (lagchanó) -- to obtain by lot, to receive, to be allotted

So all the Heirs of Salvation will be alloted Faith as part of their inheritance. I know you still cant see it, but maybe one of Gods elect sees this and be established in the faith.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



Oh its been provided, you just cant see it nor understand it. Salvation is limited to and given to the Heirs of Salvation. Now because they are heirs, they are given as part of their inheritance Faith to believe, so Peter writes 2 Pet 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

That word obtained is an inheritance word, its the greek word lagchanó:
to obtain by lot, to receive, to be allotted



So all the Heirs of Salvation will be alloted Faith as part of their inheritance. I know you still cant see it, but maybe one of Gods elect sees this and be established in the faith.

I am truly amazed at how hard you will work to deny the will of God in your posts.

You have been taught that God has to give one faith and you will scour the bible looking for any verse that you think will support your view and all the while you will ignore clear scripture that proves the error of your view.

Peter’s point is that the Gentile audience has been blessed with a salvation that is in no way inferior to that of the Jews. All who are saved by the grace of God enjoy equal acceptance before and access to God whether they are Jews or Gentiles, male or female, slave or free.

If we were to go by your view then we would have to question the truthfulness of God. If He gives faith so that one can believe and His desire is that all come to Him then why does He not give everyone faith as you are saying? Even if you say that it is only the elect you fall into the same problem, why does He not elect everyone?

Besides did Christ not say that He would draw all people to Him? Does that mean that He is going to give faith to everyone and if not why not?

Do you see the problems that you create for yourself when you just pick out select verses and ignore the rest.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

I am truly amazed at how hard you will work to deny the will of God in your posts.

I am not amazed to the fact that you cant see the Truth, God is pleased at this time to hide it from you. Salvation is an inheritance given to heirs, heirs of God and Joint Heirs with Christ whom they were chosen in before the foundation Rom 8:17

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Men cannot do anything to become Heirs of God, thats a work of Gods choosing before the foundation when He chose the Heirs in union with Christ Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us[heirs] in him[Heir] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



I am not amazed to the fact that you cant see the Truth, God is pleased at this time to hide it from you. Salvation is an inheritance given to heirs, heirs of God and Joint Heirs with Christ whom they were chosen in before the foundation Rom 8:17

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Men cannot do anything to become Heirs of God, thats a work of Gods choosing before the foundation when He chose the Heirs in union with Christ Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us[heirs] in him[Heir] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

BF you were half right in your post. If we are a child of God then we are heirs of God just as we are told in the bible.
Joh_1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Note that they have to 1} receive/believe in Him, then 2} He them gives the right to become children of God.
If a person does not receive/believe then he will not become a child of God.

Man cannot save himself but he does have to do something and that is clearly stated in the bible and you even quoted a verse that proves this. The person has to believe before they will be found in Christ.

Gal 3:21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

So we see it is not by works but by faith that one receives the promise.

Those two verse by themselves show that you understanding of Eph 1:4 is wrong. Before time God decided that salvation would be through faith in the risen Christ. He did not pick out whom but how one would be saved.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;