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Understanding God's sovereignty

D

Dave...

Member
Dave G said:
This is one point, or area, in which we seem to disagree a bit.

I see that God's word says that He hardened Pharoah's heart against Him and His words...so this I take literally. As I see Romans 9 telling us, He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens;
It's that simple, whether or not I found it easy to come to grips with it right way.

For example...in reading the book of Exodus, I clearly see the Lord telling Moses that He would harden Pharoah's heart;
For the specific purpose of him not letting God's people go.
I then see that the reason that He did so, was so that God would bring the children of Israel out of Egypt by a mighty hand, rendering His just judgements upon the Egyptians in the form of plagues and other disasters.

To me, this is a God that we as believers should fall on our faces before, in awe of His power and in serious respect for both His holiness and willingness to exact judgement whenever and wherever He sees fit.


We are the sinners, and His children are the vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory.
That we as believers are even in His grace speaks volumes regarding His willingness to show any mercy and goodness to men.
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Hey Dave

God's hardening of hearts is not done arbitrarily, but is usually done in response to sin and rejection of Him. Remember, if someone doesn't believe, they are condemned already (John 3:18). So it's justified, or justice. But, God will never inject unbelief into someone. That goes against His nature, His Character. That's why He never tempts people.

It's a very complex thing in Scripture. As Pharoah's heart was hardened by God, Pharoah ultimately hardened his heart by Himself also (Exodus 8:5, 32, 9:34). We see this same overlapping with regards to God working, using evil, but not causing it, especially with regards to chastising, hardening, etc.
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Dave... said:
Hey Dave

God's hardening of hearts is not done arbitrarily, but is usually done in response to sin and rejection of Him. Remember, if someone doesn't believe, they are condemned already (John 3:18). So it's justified, or justice. But, God will never inject unbelief into someone. That goes against His nature, His Character. That's why He never tempts people.

It's a very complex thing in Scripture. As Pharoah's heart was hardened by God, Pharoah ultimately hardened his heart by Himself also (Exodus 8:5, 32, 9:34). We see this same overlapping with regards to God working, using evil, but not causing it, especially with regards to chastising, hardening, etc.
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He started his hard heart, and for His glory and plans and purposes to be worked out, God finished it
 
D

Dave...

Member
Paleouss said:
Greetings again Dave. Thank you for your thoughtful post and your gracious attempt to understand my ramblings. :)


I agree that mankind in their depravity is not free, i.e., they are slaves to sin. I further agree that mankind, after salvation and regeneration, may have two natures. Which is then to be fully restored to one nature after the resurrection. Therefore, the desires of the flesh are still strong as our desires of the spirit grow.

You suggest that it is Paul's character that restrains him. But I think it is Paul's finiteness that restrains him. I suppose we could agree that it is Paul's finite character that restrains him. A finite character can be restrained by a more superior character, even if that superior character is also finite. Thus how Satan makes us slaves to sin through deception even though he is also of finite character.
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Sorry, maybe the word 'character' isn't the best way to say 'flesh'. Paul claims that his flesh is incapable of doing good. It's really who he is, who we all are in the flesh.

Paleouss said:
But God is not finite in any way. He is not conflicted by two natures, not restrained by finiteness (because He is infinite and Omni-everyting). Nothing therefore constrains or restrains God. He is the very definition of free.
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Actually, the fact that He is not conflicted by two natures like we are is exactly why He is unable to act according to a conflicting nature. Because there is none. We have the flesh, the bad tree, which cannot bear good fruit. We have God in us, the good tree, which cannot bear bad fruit. That's us.

His whole essence of being is based on perfection. If He is at any time not perfect, He ceases to be who He claims to be. He cannot be less than perfect. He cannot lie, because He is the truth. He cannot do evil, because He is in essence pure holiness. He cannot compromise His justice, because the Law is based on His Character, which is driven by his holiness. To compromise His justice, He must also compromise His holiness. this is what i meant when I mentioned the lengths that He went to on our behalf to not compromise Himself, or His perfection, while at the same time finding a way to bring us back to Him.


Paleouss said:
All this seems to be about finite human beings and the flesh. Which I agree, mankind is retrained and constrained by various factors. But using the finite as an example of the infinite seems misused.
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Sorry, I was just trying to contrast the point that I was making in an attempt to try to paint a more... vivid picture, I guess.

Paleouss said:
It seems to me that the Titus 1:1-2 verse is one of assurance of faithfulness not a lesson of God's limitations of constraint. It is written that God "who cannot lie" as an assurance that God is faithful and true in our "hope of enteral life" which God "promised before time began" (Tit 1:2). Which basically means God is consistently God, eternally. Never stopping to be God, never ending to be consistent. Thus one can count on that fact.
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But it doesn't say God won't lie, it says God cannot lie. Do you see the difference?


Paleouss said:
Yes, I agree. God is infinite and there is no power greater than God to tempt Him or overcome Him into being something He is not. Because He is not flawed and is infinite, He is free to be that which He desires and not being overcome by something He does not desire. But Paul, being finite, is sometimes overcome and does that which He does not wish to do.
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It doesn't say that God won't be tempted, it says God cannot be tempted. One implies a choice, suggesting that God could lie but chooses not to. The other one emphasizes an inability that is hostile to and incompatible with God's nature.

Paleouss said:
This seems to support my position more. That is, what is this freedom that would affirm that freedom is the denying of one's self? It seems to me that the very fact that one deny's themselves is proof that one is not really free. Only those who are slaves, deny themselves at the expense of who they really are. We, as slaves to sin, deny ourselves and who we really were created to be. This denying of one's self is not freedom, but slavery.

I guess one could say that because God cannot deny Himself, He cannot be a slave. But what sense does it make to say this is God not being free? Or that God is restricted in some way because He cannot be a slave?

But then I muse about the Incarnation and Christ coming as a servant to others. I wonder if God can even become a slave through the incarnation, thus even dispelling this supposed restraint or restriction.
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Is slavery really slavery, when it is not hostile to freedom? In other words, God never desires to do the opposite of righteousness, so is it really slavery or lack of freedom? I think we can rightly say that He cannot do something, and this constrains Him from that opportunity, but slavery seems to paint a picture of someone wanting to do something but are unable to do it. God does not need nor desire that kind of freedom, does He?

God can bring about anything, He's just restricted in how He does it. The OT Jews would argue all the time because they couldn't see a way for their Messiah to fulfill all the prophecy written about Him. It seemed impossible. But, they never considered a virgin birth. God will always find a way, that is what is meant when it's said that all things are possible (Matt 19:26).

Dave
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
How is God and Christ Glorified ? How was Christ faithful unto death ? Death for what ? Why did He have to be faithful unto death ? Did His death Glorify God the Father ?
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BF you are just beating against the wind. You know your religion is flawed as it does not comport with scripture.

How is God and Christ Glorified ?
By our faith and praise.

How was Christ faithful unto death ?
He died

Death for what ?
To cover the sins of humanity that we may be saved through Him

Why did He have to be faithful unto death ?
Are you suggesting there is some other way BF?

Did His death Glorify God the Father ?
His faithfulness unto death did.
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
@Silverhair

How was Christ faithful unto death ?
He died
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He died for sin 1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Was God Glorified Jn 12:27-29

27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
@Silverhair



He died for sin 1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Was God Glorified Jn 12:27-29

27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
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BF you really do struggle with the word of God don't you. You just cannot accept the fact that Jesus's whole life glorified the Father.

(NASB 95) Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
BF you really do struggle with the word of God don't you. You just cannot accept the fact that Jesus's whole life glorified the Father.

(NASB 95) Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
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Did Christ dying for the sins of his people glorify God?
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
Did Christ coming into the world dying for sin glorify God?
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Do you have a problem with the English language BF? You do seem to have a problem understanding what I wrote.

Lets try it again:

Christ's faithfulness glorified God. That is something that you just do not seem able to grasp.
His whole life glorified God BF.
I put in bold this time so that you may actually see it and not have to ask again.

Joh 17:4 I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do.

"He had preached to the Jews; he had given them full proof that he was the Messiah; he had collected his disciples; he had taught them the nature of his religion; he had given them his parting counsel, and there was nothing remaining to be done but to return to God." Barnes

Actually what we see in scripture is that God the Farther glorified the Son.

1Pe 1:21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him [Jesus] from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
 
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B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Do you have a problem with the English language BF? You do seem to have a problem understanding what I wrote.

Lets try it again:

Christ's faithfulness glorified God. That is something that you just do not seem able to grasp.
His whole life glorified God BF.
I put in bold this time so that you may actually see it and not have to ask again.

Joh 17:4 I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do.

"He had preached to the Jews; he had given them full proof that he was the Messiah; he had collected his disciples; he had taught them the nature of his religion; he had given them his parting counsel, and there was nothing remaining to be done but to return to God." Barnes

Actually what we see in scripture is that God the Farther glorified the Son.

1Pe 1:21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him [Jesus] from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
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1Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

According to that verse why did God send Christ into the world and did it glorify Him
 
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