No person can come to Christ by their own freewill ! 2

[Brightfame52]

Complete fiction, a false doctrine without a shred of biblical support.
1) Scripture precludes any individual being chosen before creation.
2) Fallen humanity are the sheep without a shepherd.
3) I refuted your OP claims in post #12.

Also the word draw means to impel inwardly

metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας ... ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπό τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11).trahitsuaquemquevoluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρός ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.)

I studied that word impel and it denotes to give motion to

"Impel" means to urge, drive, or force forward or to action by a strong internal or external force. It can also mean to impart motion to something.

That motion imparted is spiritual life, regeneration. Thats why I know drawing is also regeneration. And all are not regenerated, just all the elect.

 

[Dave...]

Jesus said some will not come to Him Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

The reason for that is simple, they have not been given to Christ by the Father in Divine Election, because Jesus went on to say Jn 6:37

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Some out of mankind has been given to Christ, pertaining to election, Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

These will come to Him that they may have life in contrast to them in Jn 5:40 who will not come ! 9

All these verses have context.

John 5:40- Refusal does not equate to inability.

A lot of the verses that you're quoting can be better understood within a bigger context. Many times those same people who could not believe, in fact did. Even the unbelieving Jews who were judicially hardened were able to be grafted back in if they believed (Romans 11:23). There is one missing element in you theology, though. Where are the true OT believers, who had a saving OT faith, when Jesus comes in the flesh with the Gospel message? What does your understanding of that time in Scripture do with them?

I'm only asking because I believe that those are the ones that the faither gave to the Son. The Sheep, are in fact, those OT believers.

I went over it here, the thread is now closed.

God hardens hearts that He claims would otherwise believe. Is this total depravity?

God hardens hearts that He claims would otherwise believe. Is this total depravity? Try to keep an open mind. Try to be good Bereans, if you can. Speak hypothetically, if you need to. Why does Satan, or the god of this age need to blind people who, according to reformed theology, already lack...

www.baptistboard.com

Dave

 

[Wesley Briggman]

John 8:36 "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." I acknowledge freewill per the biblical conception is impossible without appropriating God's grace.

Do you believe the saved and the unsaved have freewill?

 

[Brightfame52]

All these verses have context.

John 5:40- Refusal does not equate to inability.

A lot of the verses that you're quoting can be better understood within a bigger context. Many times those same people who could not believe, in fact did. Even the unbelieving Jews who were judicially hardened were able to be grafted back in if they believed (Romans 11:23). There is one missing element in you theology, though. Where are the true OT believers, who had a saving OT faith, when Jesus comes in the flesh with the Gospel message? What does your understanding of that time in Scripture do with them?

I'm only asking because I believe that those are the ones that the faither gave to the Son. The Sheep, are in fact, those OT believers.

I went over it here, the thread is now closed.

God hardens hearts that He claims would otherwise believe. Is this total depravity?

God hardens hearts that He claims would otherwise believe. Is this total depravity? Try to keep an open mind. Try to be good Bereans, if you can. Speak hypothetically, if you need to. Why does Satan, or the god of this age need to blind people who, according to reformed theology, already lack...

www.baptistboard.com

Dave

I know the contexts well, thats how I came about those nuggets of truth therein

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



Again dishonest false accusation

It is clear that you do not have a good grasp of the English language BF.

Your own words prove you have the wrong view of salvation. And yes your words do show that you , whether you understand it or not, do lead to universalism.

 

[Brightfame52]

It is clear that you do not have a good grasp of the English language BF.

Your own words prove you have the wrong view of salvation. And yes your words do show that you , whether you understand it or not, do lead to universalism.

Its clear you care nothing about hurling false accusations either

 

[Van]

YES .. THIS IS TRUE..
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you
God is with His own plan ... He is doing in His way
And unless Spirit of God makes us to convict on sin, no person can come to God

This claim seems, to me, to be wrong. Yes, God makes plans, and no plan of God can be thwarted.

Yes God chooses individuals whose faith He has credited as righteousness. After we are born anew, as new creations, created for good works, we are to go forth and produce fruit. As a born anew Christian, we have been spiritually transferred into Christ, made alive (regenerated) and sealed in Christ. Note only those where Christ abides in them (our indwelt Spirit of Christ) can produce good fruit.

I believe the correct doctrine is "Unless God reveals His gospel to us, and we hear and understand it, no person can put their faith in Christ. I believe the doctrine that we must be supernaturally "enabled" to believe by the Spirit is false doctrine.

 

[Silverhair]

Its clear you care nothing about hurling false accusations either

BF I am just responding to the posts that you have made.

Your post leads to the conclusions that I have made.

It is your deterministic philosophy that is causing your problems.

To quote you again BF
"The drawing saves them and gives them faith"

BF it it your words that lead me to the conclusion that you are promoting universalism.

Since we know from the words of Jesus that He will draw ALL to Himself and you say that it is the drawing that saves a person then that means all are saved which is universalism BF.

So I have not made a false accusation BF