No person can come to Christ by their own freewill ! 2

[Brightfame52]

Complete fiction, a false doctrine without a shred of biblical support.
1) Scripture precludes any individual being chosen before creation.
2) Fallen humanity are the sheep without a shepherd.
3) I refuted your OP claims in post #12.

Also the word draw means to impel inwardly

metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας ... ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπό τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11).trahitsuaquemquevoluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρός ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.)

I studied that word impel and it denotes to give motion to

"Impel" means to urge, drive, or force forward or to action by a strong internal or external force. It can also mean to impart motion to something.

That motion imparted is spiritual life, regeneration. Thats why I know drawing is also regeneration. And all are not regenerated, just all the elect.

 

[Dave...]

Jesus said some will not come to Him Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

The reason for that is simple, they have not been given to Christ by the Father in Divine Election, because Jesus went on to say Jn 6:37

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Some out of mankind has been given to Christ, pertaining to election, Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

These will come to Him that they may have life in contrast to them in Jn 5:40 who will not come ! 9

All these verses have context.

John 5:40- Refusal does not equate to inability.

A lot of the verses that you're quoting can be better understood within a bigger context. Many times those same people who could not believe, in fact did. Even the unbelieving Jews who were judicially hardened were able to be grafted back in if they believed (Romans 11:23). There is one missing element in you theology, though. Where are the true OT believers, who had a saving OT faith, when Jesus comes in the flesh with the Gospel message? What does your understanding of that time in Scripture do with them?

I'm only asking because I believe that those are the ones that the faither gave to the Son. The Sheep, are in fact, those OT believers.

I went over it here, the thread is now closed.

God hardens hearts that He claims would otherwise believe. Is this total depravity?

God hardens hearts that He claims would otherwise believe. Is this total depravity? Try to keep an open mind. Try to be good Bereans, if you can. Speak hypothetically, if you need to. Why does Satan, or the god of this age need to blind people who, according to reformed theology, already lack...

www.baptistboard.com

Dave

 

[Wesley Briggman]

John 8:36 "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." I acknowledge freewill per the biblical conception is impossible without appropriating God's grace.

Do you believe the saved and the unsaved have freewill?

 

[Brightfame52]

All these verses have context.

John 5:40- Refusal does not equate to inability.

A lot of the verses that you're quoting can be better understood within a bigger context. Many times those same people who could not believe, in fact did. Even the unbelieving Jews who were judicially hardened were able to be grafted back in if they believed (Romans 11:23). There is one missing element in you theology, though. Where are the true OT believers, who had a saving OT faith, when Jesus comes in the flesh with the Gospel message? What does your understanding of that time in Scripture do with them?

I'm only asking because I believe that those are the ones that the faither gave to the Son. The Sheep, are in fact, those OT believers.

I went over it here, the thread is now closed.

God hardens hearts that He claims would otherwise believe. Is this total depravity?

God hardens hearts that He claims would otherwise believe. Is this total depravity? Try to keep an open mind. Try to be good Bereans, if you can. Speak hypothetically, if you need to. Why does Satan, or the god of this age need to blind people who, according to reformed theology, already lack...

www.baptistboard.com

Dave

I know the contexts well, thats how I came about those nuggets of truth therein

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



Again dishonest false accusation

It is clear that you do not have a good grasp of the English language BF.

Your own words prove you have the wrong view of salvation. And yes your words do show that you , whether you understand it or not, do lead to universalism.

 

[Brightfame52]

It is clear that you do not have a good grasp of the English language BF.

Your own words prove you have the wrong view of salvation. And yes your words do show that you , whether you understand it or not, do lead to universalism.

Its clear you care nothing about hurling false accusations either

 

[Van]

YES .. THIS IS TRUE..
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you
God is with His own plan ... He is doing in His way
And unless Spirit of God makes us to convict on sin, no person can come to God

This claim seems, to me, to be wrong. Yes, God makes plans, and no plan of God can be thwarted.

Yes God chooses individuals whose faith He has credited as righteousness. After we are born anew, as new creations, created for good works, we are to go forth and produce fruit. As a born anew Christian, we have been spiritually transferred into Christ, made alive (regenerated) and sealed in Christ. Note only those where Christ abides in them (our indwelt Spirit of Christ) can produce good fruit.

I believe the correct doctrine is "Unless God reveals His gospel to us, and we hear and understand it, no person can put their faith in Christ. I believe the doctrine that we must be supernaturally "enabled" to believe by the Spirit is false doctrine.

 

[Silverhair]

Its clear you care nothing about hurling false accusations either

BF I am just responding to the posts that you have made.

Your post leads to the conclusions that I have made.

It is your deterministic philosophy that is causing your problems.

To quote you again BF
"The drawing saves them and gives them faith"

BF it it your words that lead me to the conclusion that you are promoting universalism.

Since we know from the words of Jesus that He will draw ALL to Himself and you say that it is the drawing that saves a person then that means all are saved which is universalism BF.

So I have not made a false accusation BF

 

[cjab]

Do you believe the saved and the unsaved have freewill?

The meaning of "free will" differs with the referent. "Absolute free will" only relates to the saved, but "free will suficient to appropriate the gospel" relates to all unless cursed in this life by God on account of their sins cf. Luke 16:31 "‘If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead.’”

I take it "hear not" means "refuse to listen to." As the pharisees had already refused Moses, so they refused Christ, who could do nothing for them.

 

[Brightfame52]

Men by nature cant comprehend the Light, Its written Jn 1:5

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Man by nature is the darkness Eph 5:8

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

The word comprehend in Jn 1:5 means :

1. to lay hold of with the mind
2. 1. to understand, perceive, learn, comprehend 10

 

[Brightfame52]

BF I am just responding to the posts that you have made.

Your post leads to the conclusions that I have made.

It is your deterministic philosophy that is causing your problems.

To quote you again BF
"The drawing saves them and gives them faith"

BF it it your words that lead me to the conclusion that you are promoting universalism.

Since we know from the words of Jesus that He will draw ALL to Himself and you say that it is the drawing that saves a person then that means all are saved which is universalism BF.

So I have not made a false accusation BF

You are responding with dishonesty and false accusations

 

[cjab]

Men by nature cant comprehend the Light, Its written Jn 1:5

It is a mistake to link the abstract in Jn 1:5 to the specific in Eph 5:8.

As Meyer says "Here [in Jn 1:5] the abstract term “darkness,” as the element in which the light shines, denotes not the individual subject of darkness (Ephesians 5:8), but, as the context requires, that same totality which had been previously described by τῶν ἀνθρώπων, consequently mankind in general, in so far as in and for themselves they have since the fall been destitute of divine truth, and have become corrupt in understanding and will."

"Men do not comprehend the light by nature" as the light is spiritual. Spirit gives birth to Spirit. Yet in response to the Spirit shining and drawing them, men do try to enter the kingdom, albeit not always successfully, as religious/political leaders "lock the kingdom of heaven before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter" Matt 23:13.

I conclude it is possible for men to comprehend the light, in allowing themselves to be drawn to it, as they remain spiritual beings in the image of God. Even if fallen, even if their spirits are dead, they retain that capacity, in general, as with the prodigal son. The real issue is whether the capacity is ever realized, which will depend on various factors, as Jesus himself enumerates, principal amongst which is their willingness to love the truth over idols.

 

[Brightfame52]

@cjab

It is a mistake to link the abstract in Jn 1:5 to the specific in Eph 5:8.

Thats foolish talk, its called comparing spiritual things with spiritual 1 Cor 2

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[Silverhair]

Men by nature cant comprehend the Light, Its written Jn 1:5

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Man by nature is the darkness Eph 5:8

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

The word comprehend in Jn 1:5 means :

1. to lay hold of with the mind
2. 1. to understand, perceive, learn, comprehend 10

You stopped reading to soon BF

Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

When Christ came into the world men did not understand, did not accept Him. But we have seen that men can respond to the various means that God has provided to know Him and many have turned in faith to God.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[Silverhair]

You are responding with dishonesty and false accusations

BF it is your words I am responding to. If you do not agree with what I have said then show me where my conclusion is wrong.

You cannot say "The drawing saves them and gives them faith" when Christ tells us He will draw ALL to Himself and not expect to have that charge made.

If Christ draws ALL and you say it is the drawing that saves then you are promoting universalism BF. There is no other way to understand what you are claiming.

We know that not all that are drawn by Christ will actually trust in Him that means your view is wrong. So since you did not get your view from the bible where did you get it?

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

You stopped reading to soon BF

No I didnt, this is something found in the reading. Man cant comprehend the Light, it agrees with Paul as well 1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.ampc

 

[Brightfame52]

BF it is your words I am responding to. If you do not agree with what I have said then show me where my conclusion is wrong.

You cannot say "The drawing saves them and gives them faith" when Christ tells us He will draw ALL to Himself and not expect to have that charge made.

If Christ draws ALL and you say it is the drawing that saves then you are promoting universalism BF. There is no other way to understand what you are claiming.

We know that not all that are drawn by Christ will actually trust in Him that means your view is wrong. So since you did not get your view from the bible where did you get it?

The all is limited obviously to the all who become believers. The Sheep. Are all men without exception His Sheep ? No off course not. Jesus told us plainly who He died for in Jn 10:11,15 so the all pertains to His Sheep So everytime you say Im teaching universalism its your dishonesty and deceit.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Second, there are degrees of free will. Jesus came to give the Jews the highest freedom. John 8:36 "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."

How many "degrees of free will" are you aware of? What is your knowledge of such degrees based on?

(Luk 22:42 KJV) Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Jesus is my example of dealing with my will. He subjected His will to His Father. My goal is to do likewise.

(Rom 6:6 KJV) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
(Rom 6:7 KJV) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
(Rom 6:18 KJV) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
(Rom 6:22 KJV) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

By the completed work of Jesus Christ' sacrificial death on the cross, I have been freed from the bondage of sin controlling my life.

My freedom is not for the purpose of me having free will. Instead:
(Rom 6:18 KJV) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 

[Dave...]

@Silverhair



No I didnt, this is something found in the reading. Man cant comprehend the Light, it agrees with Paul as well 1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.ampc

That passage is not speaking of the Gospel, but rather it's speaking of the deeper truths of Scripture. You're going beyond the text with your interpretation.

 

[Dave...]

How many "degrees of free will" are you aware of? What is your knowledge of such degrees based on?

(Luk 22:42 KJV) Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Jesus is my example of dealing with my will. He subjected His will to His Father. My goal is to do likewise.

(Rom 6:6 KJV) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
(Rom 6:7 KJV) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
(Rom 6:18 KJV) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
(Rom 6:22 KJV) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

By the completed work of Jesus Christ' sacrificial death on the cross, I have been freed from the bondage of sin controlling my life.

My freedom is not for the purpose of me having free will. Instead:
(Rom 6:18 KJV) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Hi Wesley

It's a fair question or point from cjab because so many people have different ideas of what free will actually is. I always like to start with the question: What are you claiming to be free from? Your definition is the right one, I agree. Though that freedom is the result of believing because it comes as a result of being placed into Christ and born again. The Romans passage that you quoted confirms this as this indwelling, or baptism (Romans 6:3). Otherwise known as placing into [Christ], with the [indwelling Holy Spirit, or the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Romans 6:3-5 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,

Dave