Predestination is a Beautiful Doctrine.

[Zaatar71]

When you read Rom. 8:29 you're reading a conditional election according to His foreknowledge.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

He did foreknow who would believe and He predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son.

They were predestined to His redemption plan before the foundation of the world for them to be conformed.

There are those today who are misusing this very truth in order to discredit and deny the absolute sovereignty of God in the salvation of sinners. just as higher critics are repudiating the divine inspiration of the Scriptures; evolutionists, the work of God in creation; so some pseudo Bible teachers are perverting His foreknowledge in order to set aside His unconditional election unto eternal life.

Ere proceeding further with our discussion of this much misunderstood theme, let us pause and define our terms. What is meant by ‘foreknowledge’? ‘To know beforehand,’ is the ready reply of many. But we must not jump to conclusions, nor must we turn to Webster’s dictionary as the final court of appeal, for it is not a matter of the etymology of the term employed. What is needed is to find out how the word is used in Scripture. The Holy Spirit’s usage of an expression always defines its meaning and scope. It is failure to apply this simple rule which is responsible for so much confusion and error. So many people assume they already know the signification of a certain word used in Scripture, and then they are too dilatory to test their assumptions by means of a concordance. AwPink

 

[Silverhair]

There are those today who are misusing this very truth in order to discredit and deny the absolute sovereignty of God in the salvation of sinners. just as higher critics are repudiating the divine inspiration of the Scriptures; evolutionists, the work of God in creation; so some pseudo Bible teachers are perverting His foreknowledge in order to set aside His unconditional election unto eternal life.
AWPink

Who have you seen on here that has denied the sovereignty of God?

Where the calvinist errors is that they misuse scripture by twisting it and change meaning of words to fit their philosophy.

Yes God is sovereign so the question for the calvinist is why do you not let Him be sovereign?

 

[Zaatar71]

Now what has been said on ‘flesh,’ the ‘world,’ ‘immortality,’ applies with equal force to the terms ‘know’ and ‘foreknow.’ Instead of imagining that these words signify no more than a simple cognition, the different passages in which they occure require to be carefully weighed. The word ‘foreknowledge’ is not found in the Old Testament. But ‘know’ occurs there frequently. When that term is used in connection with God, it often signifies to regard with favour, denoting not mere cognition but an affection for the object in view. ‘I know thee by name’ (Exo 33:17). ‘Ye have been rebellious against the LORD from the day that I knew you’ (Deut 9:24). ‘Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee’ (Ver 1:5). ‘They have made princes, and I knew it not’ (Hosea 8:4). ‘You only have I known of all the families of the earth’ (Amos 3:2). In these passages ‘knew’ signifies either loved or appointed.

In like manner, the word ‘know’ is frequently used in the New Testament, in the same sense as in the Old Testament. ‘Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you’ (Matt 7:23). ‘I am the good shepherd and know My sheep and am known of Mine’ (John 10:14). ‘If any man love God, the same is known of Him’ (1 Cor 8:3). ‘The Lord knoweth them that are His’ (2 Tim 2:19).

Now the word ‘foreknowledge’ as it is used in the New Testament is less ambiguous than in its simple form ‘to know.’ If every passage in which it occurs is carefully studied, it will be discovered that it is a moot point whether it ever has reference to the mere perception of events which are yet to take place. The fact is that ‘foreknowledge’ is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions; instead, it always has reference to persons. It is persons God is said to ‘foreknow,’ not the actions of those persons. In proof of this we shall now quote each passage where this expression is found.

The first occurrence is in Acts 2:23. There we read, ‘Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.’ If careful attention is paid to the wording of this verse, it will be seen that the Apostle was not there speaking of God’s foreknowledge of the act of the crucifixion, but of the Person crucified: ‘Him [Christ] being delivered by…’

The second occurrence is in Romans 8:29,30. ‘For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called.’ Weigh well the pronoun that is used here. It is not what He did foreknow, but whom He did. It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts, but the persons themselves, that are here in view.

‘God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew’ (Rom 11:2). Once more the plain reference is to persons, and to persons only.

The last mention is in I Peter 1:2: ‘Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.’ Who are ‘elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father?’ The previous verse tells us: the reference is to the ‘strangers scattered,’ i.e., the Diaspora, the Dispersion, the believing Jews. Thus, here too the reference is to persons, and not to their foreseen acts.

From the secret Calvinist dictionary, by way of A.W.Pink

 

[Zaatar71]

Who have you seen on here that has denied the sovereignty of God?

you

Where the calvinist errors is that they misuse scripture by twisting it and change meaning of words to fit their philosophy.'

rather we look at the way the holy Spiritoffered it!

Yes God is sovereign so the question for the calvinist is why do you not let Him be sovereign?

You seek to limit His sovereignty, we just believe it as it is revealed truth.

 

[Silverhair]

There are those today who are misusing this very truth in order to discredit and deny the absolute sovereignty of God in the salvation of sinners. just as higher critics are repudiating the divine inspiration of the Scriptures; evolutionists, the work of God in creation; so some pseudo Bible teachers are perverting His foreknowledge in order to set aside His unconditional election unto eternal life.

Ere proceeding further with our discussion of this much misunderstood theme, let us pause and define our terms. What is meant by ‘foreknowledge’? ‘To know beforehand,’ is the ready reply of many. But we must not jump to conclusions, nor must we turn to Webster’s dictionary as the final court of appeal, for it is not a matter of the etymology of the term employed. What is needed is to find out how the word is used in Scripture. The Holy Spirit’s usage of an expression always defines its meaning and scope. It is failure to apply this simple rule which is responsible for so much confusion and error. So many people assume they already know the signification of a certain word used in Scripture, and then they are too dilatory to test their assumptions by means of a concordance. AwPink

Foreknow, Foreknowledge
A. Verb.
proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know"), is used (a) of divine knowledge, concerning (1) Christ, 1Pe_1:20, RV, "foreknown" (KJV, "foreordained"); (2) Israel as God's earthly people, Rom_11:2; (3) believers, Rom_8:29; "the foreknowledge" of God is the basis of His foreordaining counsels; (b) of human knowledge, (1) of persons, Act_26:5; (2) of facts, 2Pe_3:17.

B. Noun.
prognosis (G4268), "a foreknowledge" (akin to A.), is used only of divine "foreknowledge," Act_2:23; 1Pe_1:2. "Foreknowledge" is one aspect of omniscience; it is implied in God's warnings, promises and predictions. See Act_15:18. God's "foreknowledge" involves His electing grace, but this does not preclude human will. He "foreknows" the exercise of faith which brings salvation. The apostle Paul stresses especially the actual purposes of God rather than the ground of the purposes, see, e.g., Gal_1:16; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11. The divine counsels will ever be unthwartable. Cf. FORESHEW.

Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

G4267

Act_26:5 προγινωσκοντεςG4267 [G5723] WHO BEFORE KNEW μεG3165 ME ανωθενG509 FROM THE FIRST, εανG1437 IF θελωσινG2309 [G5725] THEY WOULD μαρτυρεινG3140 [G5721] BEAR WITNESS, οτιG3754 THAT καταG2596 ACCORDING TO τηνG3588 THE ακριβεστατηνG196 STRICTEST αιρεσινG139 τηςG3588 SECT ημετεραςG2251 OF OUR θρησκειαςG2356 RELIGION εζησαG2198 [G5656] I LIVED φαρισαιοςG5330 A PHARISEE.

Rom_8:29 οτιG3754 BECAUSE ουςG3739 WHOM προεγνωG4267 [G5656] HE FOREKNEW, καιG2532 ALSO προωρισενG4309 [G5656] HE PREDESTINATED " TO BE " συμμορφουςG4832 CONFORMED τηςG3588 TO εικονοςG1504 THE IMAGE τουG3588 OF υιουG5207 HIS αυτουG846 SON, ειςG1519 FOR τοG3588 TO ειναιG1511 [G5750] BE αυτονG846 HIM "THE" πρωτοτοκονG4416 FIRSTBORN ενG1722 AMONG πολλοιςG4183 MANY αδελφοιςG80 BRETHREN.

Rom_11:2 ουκG3756 DID απωσατοG683 [G5662] οG3588 NOT THRUST AWAY θεοςG2316 τονG3588 GOD λαονG2992 PEOPLE, αυτουG846 HIS ονG3739 WHOM προεγνωG4267 [G5656] ηG2228 HE FOREKNEW. ουκG3756 KNOW οιδατεG1492 [G5758] YE NOT ενG1722 IN " THE HISTORY OF " ηλιαG2243 ELIJAH τιG5101 WHAT λεγειG3004 [G5719] SAYS ηG3588 THE γραφηG1124 SCRIPTURE? ωςG5613 HOW εντυγχανειG1793 [G5719] HE PLEADS τωG3588 WITH θεωG2316 GOD καταG2596 τουG3588 AGAINST ισραηλG2474 ISRAEL λεγωνG3004 [G5723] SAYING,

1Pe_1:20 προεγνωσμενουG4267 [G5772] HAVING BEEN FOREKNOWN μενG3303 INDEED προG4253 BEFORE "THE" καταβοληςG2602 FOUNDATION κοσμουG2889 OF "THE" WORLD, φανερωθεντοςG5319 [G5685] δεG1161 BUT MANIFESTED επG1909 AT εσχατωνG2078 τωνG3588 "THE" LAST χρονωνG5550 TIMES διG1223 FOR THE SAKE OF υμαςG5209 YOU,

2Pe_3:17 υμειςG5210 YE ουνG3767 THEREFORE, αγαπητοιG27 BELOVED, προγινωσκοντεςG4267 [G5723] KNOWING BEFOREHAND, φυλασσεσθεG5442 [G5732] BEWARE, ιναG2443 μηG3361 LEST τηG3588 WITH THE τωνG3588 OF THE αθεσμωνG113 LAWLESS "ONES" πλανηG4106 ERROR συναπαχθεντεςG4879 [G5685] HAVING BEEN LED AWAY, εκπεσητεG1601 [G5632] YE SHOULD FALL FROM τουG3588 ιδιουG2398 YOUR OWN στηριγμουG4740 STEADFASTNESS :

Greek New Testament Interlinear

G4268

Act_2:23 τουτονG5126 HIM, τηG3588 BY THE ωρισμενηG3724 [G5772] DETERMINATE βουληG1012 COUNSEL καιG2532 AND προγνωσειG4268 FOREKNOWLEDGE τουG3588 OF θεουG2316 GOD εκδοτονG1560 GIVEN UP, λαβοντεςG2983 [G5631] HAVING TAKEN διαG1223 BY χειρωνG5495 HANDS ανομωνG459 LAWLESS, προσπηξαντεςG4362 [G5660] HAVING CRUCIFIED ανειλετεG337 [G5627] YE PUT TO DEATH.

1Pe_1:2 καταG2596 ACCORDING TO "THE" προγνωσινG4268 FOREKNOWLEDGE θεουG2316 OF GOD πατροςG3962 "THE" FATHER, ενG1722 BY αγιασμωG38 SANCTIFICATION πνευματοςG4151 OF "THE" SPIRIT, ειςG1519 UNTO "THE" υπακοηνG5218 OBEDIENCE καιG2532 AND ραντισμονG4473 SPRINKLING αιματοςG129 OF "THE" BLOOD ιησουG2424 OF JESUS χριστουG5547 CHRIST : χαριςG5485 GRACE υμινG5213 TO YOU καιG2532 AND ειρηνηG1515 PEACE πληθυνθειηG4129 [G5684] BE MULTIPLIED.

Greek New Testament Interlinear

 

[Charlie24]

There are those today who are misusing this very truth in order to discredit and deny the absolute sovereignty of God in the salvation of sinners. just as higher critics are repudiating the divine inspiration of the Scriptures; evolutionists, the work of God in creation; so some pseudo Bible teachers are perverting His foreknowledge in order to set aside His unconditional election unto eternal life.

Ere proceeding further with our discussion of this much misunderstood theme, let us pause and define our terms. What is meant by ‘foreknowledge’? ‘To know beforehand,’ is the ready reply of many. But we must not jump to conclusions, nor must we turn to Webster’s dictionary as the final court of appeal, for it is not a matter of the etymology of the term employed. What is needed is to find out how the word is used in Scripture. The Holy Spirit’s usage of an expression always defines its meaning and scope. It is failure to apply this simple rule which is responsible for so much confusion and error. So many people assume they already know the signification of a certain word used in Scripture, and then they are too dilatory to test their assumptions by means of a concordance. AwPink

Let everyone who's following this thread decide for themselves.

It's not a difficult decision.

 

[Silverhair]

you

rather we look at the way the holy Spiritoffered it!

You seek to limit His sovereignty, we just believe it as it is revealed truth.

When? Quote what I said and where I said it @Zaatar71.

If you actually believed what is revealed in scripture then we would not be having a disagreement but since you hold to the 4th century philosophy we do disagree.

 

[Silverhair]

Foreknow, Foreknowledge
A. Verb.
proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know"), is used (a) of divine knowledge, concerning (1) Christ, 1Pe_1:20, RV, "foreknown" (KJV, "foreordained"); (2) Israel as God's earthly people, Rom_11:2; (3) believers, Rom_8:29; "the foreknowledge" of God is the basis of His foreordaining counsels; (b) of human knowledge, (1) of persons, Act_26:5; (2) of facts, 2Pe_3:17.

B. Noun.
prognosis (G4268), "a foreknowledge" (akin to A.), is used only of divine "foreknowledge," Act_2:23; 1Pe_1:2. "Foreknowledge" is one aspect of omniscience; it is implied in God's warnings, promises and predictions. See Act_15:18. God's "foreknowledge" involves His electing grace, but this does not preclude human will. He "foreknows" the exercise of faith which brings salvation. The apostle Paul stresses especially the actual purposes of God rather than the ground of the purposes, see, e.g., Gal_1:16; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11. The divine counsels will ever be unthwartable. Cf. FORESHEW.

Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

G4267

Act_26:5 προγινωσκοντεςG4267 [G5723] WHO BEFORE KNEW μεG3165 ME ανωθενG509 FROM THE FIRST, εανG1437 IF θελωσινG2309 [G5725] THEY WOULD μαρτυρεινG3140 [G5721] BEAR WITNESS, οτιG3754 THAT καταG2596 ACCORDING TO τηνG3588 THE ακριβεστατηνG196 STRICTEST αιρεσινG139 τηςG3588 SECT ημετεραςG2251 OF OUR θρησκειαςG2356 RELIGION εζησαG2198 [G5656] I LIVED φαρισαιοςG5330 A PHARISEE.

Rom_8:29 οτιG3754 BECAUSE ουςG3739 WHOM προεγνωG4267 [G5656] HE FOREKNEW, καιG2532 ALSO προωρισενG4309 [G5656] HE PREDESTINATED " TO BE " συμμορφουςG4832 CONFORMED τηςG3588 TO εικονοςG1504 THE IMAGE τουG3588 OF υιουG5207 HIS αυτουG846 SON, ειςG1519 FOR τοG3588 TO ειναιG1511 [G5750] BE αυτονG846 HIM "THE" πρωτοτοκονG4416 FIRSTBORN ενG1722 AMONG πολλοιςG4183 MANY αδελφοιςG80 BRETHREN.

Rom_11:2 ουκG3756 DID απωσατοG683 [G5662] οG3588 NOT THRUST AWAY θεοςG2316 τονG3588 GOD λαονG2992 PEOPLE, αυτουG846 HIS ονG3739 WHOM προεγνωG4267 [G5656] ηG2228 HE FOREKNEW. ουκG3756 KNOW οιδατεG1492 [G5758] YE NOT ενG1722 IN " THE HISTORY OF " ηλιαG2243 ELIJAH τιG5101 WHAT λεγειG3004 [G5719] SAYS ηG3588 THE γραφηG1124 SCRIPTURE? ωςG5613 HOW εντυγχανειG1793 [G5719] HE PLEADS τωG3588 WITH θεωG2316 GOD καταG2596 τουG3588 AGAINST ισραηλG2474 ISRAEL λεγωνG3004 [G5723] SAYING,

1Pe_1:20 προεγνωσμενουG4267 [G5772] HAVING BEEN FOREKNOWN μενG3303 INDEED προG4253 BEFORE "THE" καταβοληςG2602 FOUNDATION κοσμουG2889 OF "THE" WORLD, φανερωθεντοςG5319 [G5685] δεG1161 BUT MANIFESTED επG1909 AT εσχατωνG2078 τωνG3588 "THE" LAST χρονωνG5550 TIMES διG1223 FOR THE SAKE OF υμαςG5209 YOU,

2Pe_3:17 υμειςG5210 YE ουνG3767 THEREFORE, αγαπητοιG27 BELOVED, προγινωσκοντεςG4267 [G5723] KNOWING BEFOREHAND, φυλασσεσθεG5442 [G5732] BEWARE, ιναG2443 μηG3361 LEST τηG3588 WITH THE τωνG3588 OF THE αθεσμωνG113 LAWLESS "ONES" πλανηG4106 ERROR συναπαχθεντεςG4879 [G5685] HAVING BEEN LED AWAY, εκπεσητεG1601 [G5632] YE SHOULD FALL FROM τουG3588 ιδιουG2398 YOUR OWN στηριγμουG4740 STEADFASTNESS :

Greek New Testament Interlinear

G4268

Act_2:23 τουτονG5126 HIM, τηG3588 BY THE ωρισμενηG3724 [G5772] DETERMINATE βουληG1012 COUNSEL καιG2532 AND προγνωσειG4268 FOREKNOWLEDGE τουG3588 OF θεουG2316 GOD εκδοτονG1560 GIVEN UP, λαβοντεςG2983 [G5631] HAVING TAKEN διαG1223 BY χειρωνG5495 HANDS ανομωνG459 LAWLESS, προσπηξαντεςG4362 [G5660] HAVING CRUCIFIED ανειλετεG337 [G5627] YE PUT TO DEATH.

1Pe_1:2 καταG2596 ACCORDING TO "THE" προγνωσινG4268 FOREKNOWLEDGE θεουG2316 OF GOD πατροςG3962 "THE" FATHER, ενG1722 BY αγιασμωG38 SANCTIFICATION πνευματοςG4151 OF "THE" SPIRIT, ειςG1519 UNTO "THE" υπακοηνG5218 OBEDIENCE καιG2532 AND ραντισμονG4473 SPRINKLING αιματοςG129 OF "THE" BLOOD ιησουG2424 OF JESUS χριστουG5547 CHRIST : χαριςG5485 GRACE υμινG5213 TO YOU καιG2532 AND ειρηνηG1515 PEACE πληθυνθειηG4129 [G5684] BE MULTIPLIED.

Greek New Testament Interlinear

Odd that you would like my post as it shows the error of what you had posted when you quoted A W Pink here:
"What is meant by ‘foreknowledge’? ‘To know beforehand,’ is the ready reply of many. But we must not jump to conclusions, nor must we turn to Webster’s dictionary as the final court of appeal, for it is not a matter of the etymology of the term employed. What is needed is to find out how the word is used in Scripture."

Verb
proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know")

Noun
prognosis (G4268), "a foreknowledge"

What we see is that both verb and noun show God knowing before. Where the calvinist errors is when they think God knowing what will happen means He is causing it to happen.

Does God cause some things yes, does He cause all things no. This is obvious for if He did, as the calvinists posit, then He would be the author of all sin and evil.

 

[Zaatar71]

Odd that you would like my post as it shows the error of what you had posted when you quoted A W Pink here:
"What is meant by ‘foreknowledge’? ‘To know beforehand,’ is the ready reply of many. But we must not jump to conclusions, nor must we turn to Webster’s dictionary as the final court of appeal, for it is not a matter of the etymology of the term employed. What is needed is to find out how the word is used in Scripture."

Verb
proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know")

Noun
prognosis (G4268), "a foreknowledge"

What we see is that both verb and noun show God knowing before. Where the calvinist errors is when they think God knowing what will happen means He is causing it to happen.

Does God cause some things yes, does He cause all things no. This is obvious for if He did, as the calvinists posit, then He would be the author of all sin and evil.

Your post directly affirms what Pink wrote...In all three points, it was used of people, not things, or events. You quoted it, and do not comprehend what you posted!

 

[Silverhair]

Your post directly affirms what Pink wrote...In all three points, it was used of people, not things, or events. You quoted it, and do not comprehend what you posted!

Did you not comprehend what I wrote?

The bible is clear enough that even you should be able to understand it if you would take of those calvinist glasses.

You must have missed his part of my post or more likely ignored it

Verb
proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know")

Noun
prognosis (G4268), "a foreknowledge"

What we see is that both verb and noun show God knowing before.

FOREKNOWLEDGE, n. Knowledge of a thing before it happens; prescience. Webster

FOREKNEW, v. Simple past tense and past participle of foreknow.


In order to understand what the passage is trying to convey you have to know what the words mean. You do not adjust the meaning to fit what you think or need the verse to say which is what many calvinists do.

Pink even went so far as to point out the main calvinist error, they add there own meaning to words rather than test what the bible actually says. They say they trust the word of God but then ignore what the Holy Spirit inspired.

"The Holy Spirit’s usage of an expression always defines its meaning and scope. It is failure to apply this simple rule which is responsible for so much confusion and error. So many people assume they already know the signification of a certain word used in Scripture, and then they are too dilatory to test their assumptions by means of a concordance."

 

[cjab]

Thats your opinion which means nothing to me, no disrespect

Some comments are better left unsaid.

It was according to Rom 9

The word "predestine" is not used in Rom 9; and it would be contrary to God's character to use it of sinners, in the light of e.g. Ezekiel 33:11 "Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’"

Those who assert that God predestines to wrath are worshipping a different god. I am surprised you start with Rom 9. Why not explain how Ez 33:11 fits your crackpot theory? God uses sinners who harden their hearts against him for his own glory, but the decision to sin is always the choice of the individual man. As to Rom 9, a decision to withhold mercy entails a decision of man to reject God's grace. Jesus said of the Jews that they no longer heard the word of God, even thought they possessed it (from God's grace to them). Sterness to the Jews was not however inevitable, as some repented. And if some could repent, they could all repent.

I suspect that behind your theory is another, i.e. that God predestines to apostasy, just because of Adam's sin. Again, this is perverse. “The sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure” (Genesis 15:16) discloses that neither God nor Adam is personally responsible for sin.

It is an axiomatic and fundamental biblical doctrine that man bears responsibility for his own sin.