Predestination is a Beautiful Doctrine.

[Zaatar71]

When you read Rom. 8:29 you're reading a conditional election according to His foreknowledge.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

He did foreknow who would believe and He predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son.

They were predestined to His redemption plan before the foundation of the world for them to be conformed.

There are those today who are misusing this very truth in order to discredit and deny the absolute sovereignty of God in the salvation of sinners. just as higher critics are repudiating the divine inspiration of the Scriptures; evolutionists, the work of God in creation; so some pseudo Bible teachers are perverting His foreknowledge in order to set aside His unconditional election unto eternal life.

Ere proceeding further with our discussion of this much misunderstood theme, let us pause and define our terms. What is meant by ‘foreknowledge’? ‘To know beforehand,’ is the ready reply of many. But we must not jump to conclusions, nor must we turn to Webster’s dictionary as the final court of appeal, for it is not a matter of the etymology of the term employed. What is needed is to find out how the word is used in Scripture. The Holy Spirit’s usage of an expression always defines its meaning and scope. It is failure to apply this simple rule which is responsible for so much confusion and error. So many people assume they already know the signification of a certain word used in Scripture, and then they are too dilatory to test their assumptions by means of a concordance. AwPink

 

[Silverhair]

There are those today who are misusing this very truth in order to discredit and deny the absolute sovereignty of God in the salvation of sinners. just as higher critics are repudiating the divine inspiration of the Scriptures; evolutionists, the work of God in creation; so some pseudo Bible teachers are perverting His foreknowledge in order to set aside His unconditional election unto eternal life.
AWPink

Who have you seen on here that has denied the sovereignty of God?

Where the calvinist errors is that they misuse scripture by twisting it and change meaning of words to fit their philosophy.

Yes God is sovereign so the question for the calvinist is why do you not let Him be sovereign?

 

[Zaatar71]

Now what has been said on ‘flesh,’ the ‘world,’ ‘immortality,’ applies with equal force to the terms ‘know’ and ‘foreknow.’ Instead of imagining that these words signify no more than a simple cognition, the different passages in which they occure require to be carefully weighed. The word ‘foreknowledge’ is not found in the Old Testament. But ‘know’ occurs there frequently. When that term is used in connection with God, it often signifies to regard with favour, denoting not mere cognition but an affection for the object in view. ‘I know thee by name’ (Exo 33:17). ‘Ye have been rebellious against the LORD from the day that I knew you’ (Deut 9:24). ‘Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee’ (Ver 1:5). ‘They have made princes, and I knew it not’ (Hosea 8:4). ‘You only have I known of all the families of the earth’ (Amos 3:2). In these passages ‘knew’ signifies either loved or appointed.

In like manner, the word ‘know’ is frequently used in the New Testament, in the same sense as in the Old Testament. ‘Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you’ (Matt 7:23). ‘I am the good shepherd and know My sheep and am known of Mine’ (John 10:14). ‘If any man love God, the same is known of Him’ (1 Cor 8:3). ‘The Lord knoweth them that are His’ (2 Tim 2:19).

Now the word ‘foreknowledge’ as it is used in the New Testament is less ambiguous than in its simple form ‘to know.’ If every passage in which it occurs is carefully studied, it will be discovered that it is a moot point whether it ever has reference to the mere perception of events which are yet to take place. The fact is that ‘foreknowledge’ is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions; instead, it always has reference to persons. It is persons God is said to ‘foreknow,’ not the actions of those persons. In proof of this we shall now quote each passage where this expression is found.

The first occurrence is in Acts 2:23. There we read, ‘Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.’ If careful attention is paid to the wording of this verse, it will be seen that the Apostle was not there speaking of God’s foreknowledge of the act of the crucifixion, but of the Person crucified: ‘Him [Christ] being delivered by…’

The second occurrence is in Romans 8:29,30. ‘For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called.’ Weigh well the pronoun that is used here. It is not what He did foreknow, but whom He did. It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts, but the persons themselves, that are here in view.

‘God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew’ (Rom 11:2). Once more the plain reference is to persons, and to persons only.

The last mention is in I Peter 1:2: ‘Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.’ Who are ‘elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father?’ The previous verse tells us: the reference is to the ‘strangers scattered,’ i.e., the Diaspora, the Dispersion, the believing Jews. Thus, here too the reference is to persons, and not to their foreseen acts.

From the secret Calvinist dictionary, by way of A.W.Pink

 

[Zaatar71]

Who have you seen on here that has denied the sovereignty of God?

you

Where the calvinist errors is that they misuse scripture by twisting it and change meaning of words to fit their philosophy.'

rather we look at the way the holy Spiritoffered it!

Yes God is sovereign so the question for the calvinist is why do you not let Him be sovereign?

You seek to limit His sovereignty, we just believe it as it is revealed truth.

 

[Silverhair]

There are those today who are misusing this very truth in order to discredit and deny the absolute sovereignty of God in the salvation of sinners. just as higher critics are repudiating the divine inspiration of the Scriptures; evolutionists, the work of God in creation; so some pseudo Bible teachers are perverting His foreknowledge in order to set aside His unconditional election unto eternal life.

Ere proceeding further with our discussion of this much misunderstood theme, let us pause and define our terms. What is meant by ‘foreknowledge’? ‘To know beforehand,’ is the ready reply of many. But we must not jump to conclusions, nor must we turn to Webster’s dictionary as the final court of appeal, for it is not a matter of the etymology of the term employed. What is needed is to find out how the word is used in Scripture. The Holy Spirit’s usage of an expression always defines its meaning and scope. It is failure to apply this simple rule which is responsible for so much confusion and error. So many people assume they already know the signification of a certain word used in Scripture, and then they are too dilatory to test their assumptions by means of a concordance. AwPink

Foreknow, Foreknowledge
A. Verb.
proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know"), is used (a) of divine knowledge, concerning (1) Christ, 1Pe_1:20, RV, "foreknown" (KJV, "foreordained"); (2) Israel as God's earthly people, Rom_11:2; (3) believers, Rom_8:29; "the foreknowledge" of God is the basis of His foreordaining counsels; (b) of human knowledge, (1) of persons, Act_26:5; (2) of facts, 2Pe_3:17.

B. Noun.
prognosis (G4268), "a foreknowledge" (akin to A.), is used only of divine "foreknowledge," Act_2:23; 1Pe_1:2. "Foreknowledge" is one aspect of omniscience; it is implied in God's warnings, promises and predictions. See Act_15:18. God's "foreknowledge" involves His electing grace, but this does not preclude human will. He "foreknows" the exercise of faith which brings salvation. The apostle Paul stresses especially the actual purposes of God rather than the ground of the purposes, see, e.g., Gal_1:16; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11. The divine counsels will ever be unthwartable. Cf. FORESHEW.

Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

G4267

Act_26:5 προγινωσκοντεςG4267 [G5723] WHO BEFORE KNEW μεG3165 ME ανωθενG509 FROM THE FIRST, εανG1437 IF θελωσινG2309 [G5725] THEY WOULD μαρτυρεινG3140 [G5721] BEAR WITNESS, οτιG3754 THAT καταG2596 ACCORDING TO τηνG3588 THE ακριβεστατηνG196 STRICTEST αιρεσινG139 τηςG3588 SECT ημετεραςG2251 OF OUR θρησκειαςG2356 RELIGION εζησαG2198 [G5656] I LIVED φαρισαιοςG5330 A PHARISEE.

Rom_8:29 οτιG3754 BECAUSE ουςG3739 WHOM προεγνωG4267 [G5656] HE FOREKNEW, καιG2532 ALSO προωρισενG4309 [G5656] HE PREDESTINATED " TO BE " συμμορφουςG4832 CONFORMED τηςG3588 TO εικονοςG1504 THE IMAGE τουG3588 OF υιουG5207 HIS αυτουG846 SON, ειςG1519 FOR τοG3588 TO ειναιG1511 [G5750] BE αυτονG846 HIM "THE" πρωτοτοκονG4416 FIRSTBORN ενG1722 AMONG πολλοιςG4183 MANY αδελφοιςG80 BRETHREN.

Rom_11:2 ουκG3756 DID απωσατοG683 [G5662] οG3588 NOT THRUST AWAY θεοςG2316 τονG3588 GOD λαονG2992 PEOPLE, αυτουG846 HIS ονG3739 WHOM προεγνωG4267 [G5656] ηG2228 HE FOREKNEW. ουκG3756 KNOW οιδατεG1492 [G5758] YE NOT ενG1722 IN " THE HISTORY OF " ηλιαG2243 ELIJAH τιG5101 WHAT λεγειG3004 [G5719] SAYS ηG3588 THE γραφηG1124 SCRIPTURE? ωςG5613 HOW εντυγχανειG1793 [G5719] HE PLEADS τωG3588 WITH θεωG2316 GOD καταG2596 τουG3588 AGAINST ισραηλG2474 ISRAEL λεγωνG3004 [G5723] SAYING,

1Pe_1:20 προεγνωσμενουG4267 [G5772] HAVING BEEN FOREKNOWN μενG3303 INDEED προG4253 BEFORE "THE" καταβοληςG2602 FOUNDATION κοσμουG2889 OF "THE" WORLD, φανερωθεντοςG5319 [G5685] δεG1161 BUT MANIFESTED επG1909 AT εσχατωνG2078 τωνG3588 "THE" LAST χρονωνG5550 TIMES διG1223 FOR THE SAKE OF υμαςG5209 YOU,

2Pe_3:17 υμειςG5210 YE ουνG3767 THEREFORE, αγαπητοιG27 BELOVED, προγινωσκοντεςG4267 [G5723] KNOWING BEFOREHAND, φυλασσεσθεG5442 [G5732] BEWARE, ιναG2443 μηG3361 LEST τηG3588 WITH THE τωνG3588 OF THE αθεσμωνG113 LAWLESS "ONES" πλανηG4106 ERROR συναπαχθεντεςG4879 [G5685] HAVING BEEN LED AWAY, εκπεσητεG1601 [G5632] YE SHOULD FALL FROM τουG3588 ιδιουG2398 YOUR OWN στηριγμουG4740 STEADFASTNESS :

Greek New Testament Interlinear

G4268

Act_2:23 τουτονG5126 HIM, τηG3588 BY THE ωρισμενηG3724 [G5772] DETERMINATE βουληG1012 COUNSEL καιG2532 AND προγνωσειG4268 FOREKNOWLEDGE τουG3588 OF θεουG2316 GOD εκδοτονG1560 GIVEN UP, λαβοντεςG2983 [G5631] HAVING TAKEN διαG1223 BY χειρωνG5495 HANDS ανομωνG459 LAWLESS, προσπηξαντεςG4362 [G5660] HAVING CRUCIFIED ανειλετεG337 [G5627] YE PUT TO DEATH.

1Pe_1:2 καταG2596 ACCORDING TO "THE" προγνωσινG4268 FOREKNOWLEDGE θεουG2316 OF GOD πατροςG3962 "THE" FATHER, ενG1722 BY αγιασμωG38 SANCTIFICATION πνευματοςG4151 OF "THE" SPIRIT, ειςG1519 UNTO "THE" υπακοηνG5218 OBEDIENCE καιG2532 AND ραντισμονG4473 SPRINKLING αιματοςG129 OF "THE" BLOOD ιησουG2424 OF JESUS χριστουG5547 CHRIST : χαριςG5485 GRACE υμινG5213 TO YOU καιG2532 AND ειρηνηG1515 PEACE πληθυνθειηG4129 [G5684] BE MULTIPLIED.

Greek New Testament Interlinear

 

[Charlie24]

There are those today who are misusing this very truth in order to discredit and deny the absolute sovereignty of God in the salvation of sinners. just as higher critics are repudiating the divine inspiration of the Scriptures; evolutionists, the work of God in creation; so some pseudo Bible teachers are perverting His foreknowledge in order to set aside His unconditional election unto eternal life.

Ere proceeding further with our discussion of this much misunderstood theme, let us pause and define our terms. What is meant by ‘foreknowledge’? ‘To know beforehand,’ is the ready reply of many. But we must not jump to conclusions, nor must we turn to Webster’s dictionary as the final court of appeal, for it is not a matter of the etymology of the term employed. What is needed is to find out how the word is used in Scripture. The Holy Spirit’s usage of an expression always defines its meaning and scope. It is failure to apply this simple rule which is responsible for so much confusion and error. So many people assume they already know the signification of a certain word used in Scripture, and then they are too dilatory to test their assumptions by means of a concordance. AwPink

Let everyone who's following this thread decide for themselves.

It's not a difficult decision.

 

[Silverhair]

you

rather we look at the way the holy Spiritoffered it!

You seek to limit His sovereignty, we just believe it as it is revealed truth.

When? Quote what I said and where I said it @Zaatar71.

If you actually believed what is revealed in scripture then we would not be having a disagreement but since you hold to the 4th century philosophy we do disagree.

 

[Silverhair]

Foreknow, Foreknowledge
A. Verb.
proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know"), is used (a) of divine knowledge, concerning (1) Christ, 1Pe_1:20, RV, "foreknown" (KJV, "foreordained"); (2) Israel as God's earthly people, Rom_11:2; (3) believers, Rom_8:29; "the foreknowledge" of God is the basis of His foreordaining counsels; (b) of human knowledge, (1) of persons, Act_26:5; (2) of facts, 2Pe_3:17.

B. Noun.
prognosis (G4268), "a foreknowledge" (akin to A.), is used only of divine "foreknowledge," Act_2:23; 1Pe_1:2. "Foreknowledge" is one aspect of omniscience; it is implied in God's warnings, promises and predictions. See Act_15:18. God's "foreknowledge" involves His electing grace, but this does not preclude human will. He "foreknows" the exercise of faith which brings salvation. The apostle Paul stresses especially the actual purposes of God rather than the ground of the purposes, see, e.g., Gal_1:16; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11. The divine counsels will ever be unthwartable. Cf. FORESHEW.

Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

G4267

Act_26:5 προγινωσκοντεςG4267 [G5723] WHO BEFORE KNEW μεG3165 ME ανωθενG509 FROM THE FIRST, εανG1437 IF θελωσινG2309 [G5725] THEY WOULD μαρτυρεινG3140 [G5721] BEAR WITNESS, οτιG3754 THAT καταG2596 ACCORDING TO τηνG3588 THE ακριβεστατηνG196 STRICTEST αιρεσινG139 τηςG3588 SECT ημετεραςG2251 OF OUR θρησκειαςG2356 RELIGION εζησαG2198 [G5656] I LIVED φαρισαιοςG5330 A PHARISEE.

Rom_8:29 οτιG3754 BECAUSE ουςG3739 WHOM προεγνωG4267 [G5656] HE FOREKNEW, καιG2532 ALSO προωρισενG4309 [G5656] HE PREDESTINATED " TO BE " συμμορφουςG4832 CONFORMED τηςG3588 TO εικονοςG1504 THE IMAGE τουG3588 OF υιουG5207 HIS αυτουG846 SON, ειςG1519 FOR τοG3588 TO ειναιG1511 [G5750] BE αυτονG846 HIM "THE" πρωτοτοκονG4416 FIRSTBORN ενG1722 AMONG πολλοιςG4183 MANY αδελφοιςG80 BRETHREN.

Rom_11:2 ουκG3756 DID απωσατοG683 [G5662] οG3588 NOT THRUST AWAY θεοςG2316 τονG3588 GOD λαονG2992 PEOPLE, αυτουG846 HIS ονG3739 WHOM προεγνωG4267 [G5656] ηG2228 HE FOREKNEW. ουκG3756 KNOW οιδατεG1492 [G5758] YE NOT ενG1722 IN " THE HISTORY OF " ηλιαG2243 ELIJAH τιG5101 WHAT λεγειG3004 [G5719] SAYS ηG3588 THE γραφηG1124 SCRIPTURE? ωςG5613 HOW εντυγχανειG1793 [G5719] HE PLEADS τωG3588 WITH θεωG2316 GOD καταG2596 τουG3588 AGAINST ισραηλG2474 ISRAEL λεγωνG3004 [G5723] SAYING,

1Pe_1:20 προεγνωσμενουG4267 [G5772] HAVING BEEN FOREKNOWN μενG3303 INDEED προG4253 BEFORE "THE" καταβοληςG2602 FOUNDATION κοσμουG2889 OF "THE" WORLD, φανερωθεντοςG5319 [G5685] δεG1161 BUT MANIFESTED επG1909 AT εσχατωνG2078 τωνG3588 "THE" LAST χρονωνG5550 TIMES διG1223 FOR THE SAKE OF υμαςG5209 YOU,

2Pe_3:17 υμειςG5210 YE ουνG3767 THEREFORE, αγαπητοιG27 BELOVED, προγινωσκοντεςG4267 [G5723] KNOWING BEFOREHAND, φυλασσεσθεG5442 [G5732] BEWARE, ιναG2443 μηG3361 LEST τηG3588 WITH THE τωνG3588 OF THE αθεσμωνG113 LAWLESS "ONES" πλανηG4106 ERROR συναπαχθεντεςG4879 [G5685] HAVING BEEN LED AWAY, εκπεσητεG1601 [G5632] YE SHOULD FALL FROM τουG3588 ιδιουG2398 YOUR OWN στηριγμουG4740 STEADFASTNESS :

Greek New Testament Interlinear

G4268

Act_2:23 τουτονG5126 HIM, τηG3588 BY THE ωρισμενηG3724 [G5772] DETERMINATE βουληG1012 COUNSEL καιG2532 AND προγνωσειG4268 FOREKNOWLEDGE τουG3588 OF θεουG2316 GOD εκδοτονG1560 GIVEN UP, λαβοντεςG2983 [G5631] HAVING TAKEN διαG1223 BY χειρωνG5495 HANDS ανομωνG459 LAWLESS, προσπηξαντεςG4362 [G5660] HAVING CRUCIFIED ανειλετεG337 [G5627] YE PUT TO DEATH.

1Pe_1:2 καταG2596 ACCORDING TO "THE" προγνωσινG4268 FOREKNOWLEDGE θεουG2316 OF GOD πατροςG3962 "THE" FATHER, ενG1722 BY αγιασμωG38 SANCTIFICATION πνευματοςG4151 OF "THE" SPIRIT, ειςG1519 UNTO "THE" υπακοηνG5218 OBEDIENCE καιG2532 AND ραντισμονG4473 SPRINKLING αιματοςG129 OF "THE" BLOOD ιησουG2424 OF JESUS χριστουG5547 CHRIST : χαριςG5485 GRACE υμινG5213 TO YOU καιG2532 AND ειρηνηG1515 PEACE πληθυνθειηG4129 [G5684] BE MULTIPLIED.

Greek New Testament Interlinear

Odd that you would like my post as it shows the error of what you had posted when you quoted A W Pink here:
"What is meant by ‘foreknowledge’? ‘To know beforehand,’ is the ready reply of many. But we must not jump to conclusions, nor must we turn to Webster’s dictionary as the final court of appeal, for it is not a matter of the etymology of the term employed. What is needed is to find out how the word is used in Scripture."

Verb
proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know")

Noun
prognosis (G4268), "a foreknowledge"

What we see is that both verb and noun show God knowing before. Where the calvinist errors is when they think God knowing what will happen means He is causing it to happen.

Does God cause some things yes, does He cause all things no. This is obvious for if He did, as the calvinists posit, then He would be the author of all sin and evil.

 

[Zaatar71]

Odd that you would like my post as it shows the error of what you had posted when you quoted A W Pink here:
"What is meant by ‘foreknowledge’? ‘To know beforehand,’ is the ready reply of many. But we must not jump to conclusions, nor must we turn to Webster’s dictionary as the final court of appeal, for it is not a matter of the etymology of the term employed. What is needed is to find out how the word is used in Scripture."

Verb
proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know")

Noun
prognosis (G4268), "a foreknowledge"

What we see is that both verb and noun show God knowing before. Where the calvinist errors is when they think God knowing what will happen means He is causing it to happen.

Does God cause some things yes, does He cause all things no. This is obvious for if He did, as the calvinists posit, then He would be the author of all sin and evil.

Your post directly affirms what Pink wrote...In all three points, it was used of people, not things, or events. You quoted it, and do not comprehend what you posted!

 

[Silverhair]

Your post directly affirms what Pink wrote...In all three points, it was used of people, not things, or events. You quoted it, and do not comprehend what you posted!

Did you not comprehend what I wrote?

The bible is clear enough that even you should be able to understand it if you would take of those calvinist glasses.

You must have missed his part of my post or more likely ignored it

Verb
proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know")

Noun
prognosis (G4268), "a foreknowledge"

What we see is that both verb and noun show God knowing before.

FOREKNOWLEDGE, n. Knowledge of a thing before it happens; prescience. Webster

FOREKNEW, v. Simple past tense and past participle of foreknow.


In order to understand what the passage is trying to convey you have to know what the words mean. You do not adjust the meaning to fit what you think or need the verse to say which is what many calvinists do.

Pink even went so far as to point out the main calvinist error, they add there own meaning to words rather than test what the bible actually says. They say they trust the word of God but then ignore what the Holy Spirit inspired.

"The Holy Spirit’s usage of an expression always defines its meaning and scope. It is failure to apply this simple rule which is responsible for so much confusion and error. So many people assume they already know the signification of a certain word used in Scripture, and then they are too dilatory to test their assumptions by means of a concordance."

 

[cjab]

Thats your opinion which means nothing to me, no disrespect

Some comments are better left unsaid.

It was according to Rom 9

The word "predestine" is not used in Rom 9; and it would be contrary to God's character to use it of sinners, in the light of e.g. Ezekiel 33:11 "Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’"

Those who assert that God predestines to wrath are worshipping a different god. I am surprised you start with Rom 9. Why not explain how Ez 33:11 fits your crackpot theory? God uses sinners who harden their hearts against him for his own glory, but the decision to sin is always the choice of the individual man. As to Rom 9, a decision to withhold mercy entails a decision of man to reject God's grace. Jesus said of the Jews that they no longer heard the word of God, even thought they possessed it (from God's grace to them). Sterness to the Jews was not however inevitable, as some repented. And if some could repent, they could all repent.

I suspect that behind your theory is another, i.e. that God predestines to apostasy, just because of Adam's sin. Again, this is perverse. “The sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure” (Genesis 15:16) discloses that neither God nor Adam is personally responsible for sin.

It is an axiomatic and fundamental biblical doctrine that man bears responsibility for his own sin.

 

[Brightfame52]

The word "predestine" is not used in Rom 9

It doesnt have to be.

 

[Zaatar71]

Did you not comprehend what I wrote?

I did!

The bible is clear enough that even you should be able to understand it if you would take of those calvinist glasses.

they fit just fine my friend!

You must have missed his part of my post or more likely ignored it

No, I was glad you posted a good link!

Verb
proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know")

Yes, God knew the persons before the world was! here we go; AW PINk-God foreknows what will be because He has decreed what shall be. It is therefore a reversing of the order of Scripture, a putting of the cart before the horse, to affirm that God elects because He foreknows people. The truth is, He foreknows because He has elected.

This removes the ground or cause of election from outside the creature, and places it in God’s own sovereign will.

God purposed in Himself to elect a certain people, not because of anything good in them or from them, either actual or foreseen, but solely out of His own mere pleasure.

As to why He chose the ones He did, we do not know, and can only say, ‘Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in Thy sight.’

The plain truth in Romans 8:29 is that God, before the foundation of the world, singled out certain sinners and appointed them unto salvation (2 Thess 2:13).

This is clear from the concluding words of the verse: ‘Predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son.’ God did not predestinate those whom He foreknew were conformed,’ but, on the contrary, those whom He ‘foreknew’ (i.e., loved and elected) He predestinated ‘to be conformed.’ Their conformity to Christ is not the cause, but the effect of God’s foreknowledge and predestination.

Noun
prognosis (G4268), "a foreknowledge"

Yes, of the elect sinners he set His love on, now you are getting it!

What we see is that both verb and noun show God knowing before.

Yes indeed, WHOM he did Foreknow...Pink; God did not elect any sinner because He foresaw that he would believe, for the simple but sufficient reason that no sinner ever does believe until God gives him faith; just as no man sees until God gives him sight. Sight is God’s gift, seeing is the consequence of my using His gift. So faith is God’s gift (Eph 2:8,9), believing is the consequence of my using His gift. If it were true that God had elected certain ones to be saved because in due time they would believe, then that would make believing a meritorious act, and in that event the saved sinner would have ground for ‘boasting,’ which Scripture emphatically denies (Eph 2:9).

FOREKNOWLEDGE, n. Knowledge of a thing before it happens; prescience. Webster

Webster did not write Romans, Paul by the Holy Spirit did! Not prescience, foreknowledge of persons, not events

FOREKNEW, v. Simple past tense and past participle of foreknow.

Not the biblical usage however!

In order to understand what the passage is trying to convey you have to know what the words mean. You do not adjust the meaning to fit what you think or need the verse to say which is what many calvinists do.

We see How God used it, that determines it!

Pink even went so far as to point out the main calvinist error, they add there own meaning to words rather than test what the bible actually says. They say they trust the word of God but then ignore what the Holy Spirit inspired.

perhaps it is you who did not read what Pink wrote correctly!....Surely God’s Word is plain enough in teaching that believing is not a meritorious act. It affirms that Christians are a people who ‘have believed through grace’ (Acts 18:27). If, then, they have believed ‘through grace,’ there is absolutly nothing meritorious about ‘believing,’ and if nothing meritorious, it could not be the ground or cause which moved God to choose them. No; God’s choice proceeds not from anything in us, or anything from us, but solely from His own sovereign pleasure. Once more, in Romans 11:5, we read of ‘a remnant according to the election of grace.’ There it is, plain enough; election itself is of grace, and grace is unmerited favour, something for which we had no claim upon God whatsoever.

"The Holy Spirit’s usage of an expression always defines its meaning and scope.

Exactly right!

It is failure to apply this simple rule which is responsible for so much confusion and error.

yes, now you seem to be understanding. I knew one day it would happen!

So many people assume they already know the signification of a certain word used in Scripture, and then they are too dilatory to test their assumptions by means of a concordance."

Just using scripture! Nice post! here is AW.Pink again;

Now in view of these passages (and there are no more) what Scriptural ground is there for anyone saying God ‘foreknew’ the acts of certain ones, viz., their ‘repenting and believing,’ and that because of those acts He elected them unto salvation? The answer is: None whatever.

Scripture never speaks of repentance and faith as being foreseen or foreknown by God. Truly, He did know from all eternity that certain ones would repent and believe, yet this is not what Scripture refers to as the object of God’s foreknowledge. The word uniformly refers to God’s foreknowing persons; then let us ‘hold fast the form of sound words’ (2 Tim 1:13).

 

[Silverhair]

I did!

they fit just fine my friend!

No, I was glad you posted a good link!

Yes, God knew the persons before the world was! here we go; AW PINk-God foreknows what will be because He has decreed what shall be. It is therefore a reversing of the order of Scripture, a putting of the cart before the horse, to affirm that God elects because He foreknows people. The truth is, He foreknows because He has elected.

This removes the ground or cause of election from outside the creature, and places it in God’s own sovereign will.

God purposed in Himself to elect a certain people, not because of anything good in them or from them, either actual or foreseen, but solely out of His own mere pleasure.

As to why He chose the ones He did, we do not know, and can only say, ‘Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in Thy sight.’

The plain truth in Romans 8:29 is that God, before the foundation of the world, singled out certain sinners and appointed them unto salvation (2 Thess 2:13).

This is clear from the concluding words of the verse: ‘Predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son.’ God did not predestinate those whom He foreknew were conformed,’ but, on the contrary, those whom He ‘foreknew’ (i.e., loved and elected) He predestinated ‘to be conformed.’ Their conformity to Christ is not the cause, but the effect of God’s foreknowledge and predestination.

Yes, of the elect sinners he set His love on, now you are getting it!

Yes indeed, WHOM he did Foreknow...Pink; God did not elect any sinner because He foresaw that he would believe, for the simple but sufficient reason that no sinner ever does believe until God gives him faith; just as no man sees until God gives him sight. Sight is God’s gift, seeing is the consequence of my using His gift. So faith is God’s gift (Eph 2:8,9), believing is the consequence of my using His gift. If it were true that God had elected certain ones to be saved because in due time they would believe, then that would make believing a meritorious act, and in that event the saved sinner would have ground for ‘boasting,’ which Scripture emphatically denies (Eph 2:9).



Webster did not write Romans, Paul by the Holy Spirit did! Not prescience, foreknowledge of persons, not events

Not the biblical usage however!

We see How God used it, that determines it!

perhaps it is you who did not read what Pink wrote correctly!....Surely God’s Word is plain enough in teaching that believing is not a meritorious act. It affirms that Christians are a people who ‘have believed through grace’ (Acts 18:27). If, then, they have believed ‘through grace,’ there is absolutly nothing meritorious about ‘believing,’ and if nothing meritorious, it could not be the ground or cause which moved God to choose them. No; God’s choice proceeds not from anything in us, or anything from us, but solely from His own sovereign pleasure. Once more, in Romans 11:5, we read of ‘a remnant according to the election of grace.’ There it is, plain enough; election itself is of grace, and grace is unmerited favour, something for which we had no claim upon God whatsoever.

Exactly right!

yes, now you seem to be understanding. I knew one day it would happen!

Just using scripture! Nice post! here is AW.Pink again;

Now in view of these passages (and there are no more) what Scriptural ground is there for anyone saying God ‘foreknew’ the acts of certain ones, viz., their ‘repenting and believing,’ and that because of those acts He elected them unto salvation? The answer is: None whatever.

Scripture never speaks of repentance and faith as being foreseen or foreknown by God. Truly, He did know from all eternity that certain ones would repent and believe, yet this is not what Scripture refers to as the object of God’s foreknowledge. The word uniformly refers to God’s foreknowing persons; then let us ‘hold fast the form of sound words’ (2 Tim 1:13).

So you respond with what you trust which is man rather than God.

It is a sad commentary that so many calvinists will run to man for support and ignore the word of God.

Pink was wrong just as you are wrong to trust in him.

 

[Zaatar71]

So you respond with what you trust which is man rather than God.

No SH, I respond with teachers who know and believed scripture. It is all about scripture! You cannot refute what is taught because it is built on the solid rock of scripture

It is a sad commentary that so many calvinists will run to man for support and ignore the word of God.

Those who object, like you, cannot answer because Calvinist teachers offer solid scripture, which are not going to be refuted anytime soon.

Pink was wrong just as you are wrong to trust in him.

Show where he was wrong, that should be simple enough...No one is stopping you from trying..Saying he was wrong, is one thing, showing in scripture is another thing...you cannot do it!

 

[Brightfame52]

Acts 18:27). If, then, they have believed ‘through grace,’ there is absolutly nothing meritorious about ‘believing,’ and if nothing meritorious, it could not be the ground or cause which moved God to choose them.

True point, but when as the free willers teach, believing is by the unregenerate flesh of man, which causes God to save them, then believing becomes a meritorious work they did. It believing is not meritorious only when its acknowledged to be caused by Gods Grace. And Specifically the Grace of regeneration.

 

[Van]

Predestination is a False Doctrine.​

Calvinism's false doctrine is that Ephesians 1:4 teaches individuals (foreseen before they were created) were individually chosen for salvation before creation. This is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10 which says we once were not a people chosen for his own possession and once had not received mercy. Therefore the election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate, when God chose the Word to be His Lamb of God, His Redeemer, He chose corporately those who might be redeemed. This also makes sense since we did not exist as individuals.​

The foreseen individuals supposedly did not believe or their belief was disregarded by God. If that was so, and it happens to be a complete fiction, then they would be condemned for unbelief. John 3:18.
The list of verses and scriptural teachings that must be nullified to accept the fiction of Calvinism is long indeed.

 

[Van]

The meaning of foreknowledge is knowledge acquired or formulated in the past being utilized in the present, such as the implementation of a pre-determined plan.

Jesus was delivered according to the foreknowledge of God. The plan had been pre-determined.

Peter is addressing those chosen according to God's pre-determined redemption plan, which is to set the individual's spiritually apart in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit, enabling obedience by the washing of regeneration and rebirth as a new creation for good works.

 

[Dave G]

Where in Scripture do I find God leaving man to perish in his sin without reaching out to him in mercy?

God withholding His mercy from some, and choosing to show it to others?

1) God has judicially blinded the nation of Israel, for the most part, specifically so that they cannot see, hear and believe on His Son in Matthew 13:10-17, Mark 4:10-12, John 12:37-40, Romans 11:7-11. This leaves them in their sins.

2) The Gospel is hid to them that believe not ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ) by Satan because the Lord allows it. Again, this leaves all who are blinded by Satan in their sins, and does not show them His mercy.

3) In 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul tells the church at Thessalonica that when Anti-Christ comes, the Lord will send those who are not His people a strong delusion... so that they will believe the lie that Anti-Christ is God, and will voluntarily take the mark. This leaves them in their sins.

There are many other places in the Scriptures that objectively show the Lord choosing one and not another;
Choosing to blind some and not others, etc.
God has mercy upon whom He will have mercy ( Romans 9 ), Charlie.


If anyone has believed on His Son, it's because He chose to have mercy on them and to allow His Son to reveal the truth of who He really is, to their hearts and minds ( Matthew 11:25-27 ).

Have you not read of these things?

 

[Dave G]

I'm pretty sure that is not in God's plan, but some believe it is.

It's the same plan that He had when the Holy Ghost forbade Paul and Silas to go into Asia ( Acts 16:6-7 ), the same plan when He decided to reveal Himself to Jacob and not to Esau, Moses and not Zipporah, Joseph and Mary and not others of their family, Paul on the road to Damascus and not the rest of his friends in the Pharisees ( except for Nicodemus and some others ), Peter, James, John, Andrew and some of the other fishermen who frequented the Sea of Galilee and not others, and the same plan when Noah and his family were the only ones that the Lord saved in the ark.

I think you'll find, if you look carefully enough throughout God's word, that all those that the Lord has specifically revealed Himself to over the years, have been in a rather small minority... compared to the billions that have ever been born, lived and died.