And early has been attacked by the "new view of Paul" gang, headlined by NT Wright and his gang
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Christ set forth as a Propitiation
- Thread starter Martin Marprelate
- Start date
Actually, it is popular with liberal Chriatianity and it is a Mormon (although not the most popular) theory.
But Pelagians (the initial heresy) was before the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement was invented.
It was also never popular among Lutherans (they make the distinction of satisfactory punishment rather than penal), it was non-existant among the Early Church (who used language penal substitution theorists claim is their theory while ignoring they viewed the source of Jesus suffering and death to Satan).
But who cares? The main issue is your theory is foreign to God's Word.
You think wrong. At one time all Baptist scholars and theologians rejected your theory. With time many were influenced by the Presbyterian church and adopted the theory. Today Baptist theologians are divided.
But here you ago again....looking for men who tickle your ears.
You have never provided even one verse in all of Scripture stating your theory.
Do you know the difference between leaning on your understanding versus every word that comes forth from God?
Romans 3:25. God set Him forth as a propitiation by His blood.' What do you think that means? Do you suppose that God is not propitiated by the death of Christ? Would that not suggest a serious failure on God's part in setting Him forth to no avail, and on Christ's part if the shedding of His blood failed to propitiate God towards sinners?
What need therefore for the Lord Jesus to suffer and die? God has sorted it out.
It sounds like a lot of work. How do we accomplish these things? And if God is going to do it all for us, on what basis will He do it?
Shouldn't that come before the last bit?
So why the cross?
How exactly? I know, and so do most of the people on this board, but I don't think you do. Why could He not be the propitiation for human sin by doing 20 press-ups or doing some more miracles or...... anything really apart from dying on a wooden cross?
Just so, but you left out the phrase that follows.
Again, how exactly?
God set forth Jesus as a Propitiation by His blood.
It is not hard to understand.
God (here the Father as Jesus offered Himself in obedience to the Father).
Set forth (put forth, sent)
Him (Jesus, the Son)
as a (a preposition to show a role or function)
Propitiation (a noun, something that brings favor, from "propitius" which means favorable or gracious).
In His blood (points to Christ's obedience tp death, His crucifixion
Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, so that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
In Christianity we are reconciled to God, not like the pagan sacrifices but by being recreated in Christ.
Scripture speak once of God being propiated, and this is by mediation (Christ, as our High Priest, interceding for us when we sin). But we read elsewhere that Chriat Himself is this Propitiation (we are clothed with His righteousness, being conformed into His image).
Scripture interprets Scrioture, @Martin Marprelate . No need for theories.
Christ is our propitiation.
We are reconciled to God in Christ.
We are being conformed into His image.
In Him we escape the wrath to come.
We are made new creations in Christ.
You are so focused on paganism you cannot grasp God's words right in front of you.
Last edited:
This is actually not quite true. What you mean is "the new perspective on Paul". Here there are many theories, but the general idea is only new in relation from arising within Reformed theologians.
The movement began in Lutheran theology in the early 1960's.
But it was merely a shift from Reformed tradition to seek out a more biblical view. These scholars recognized a major issue within their traditions and sought to bring their churches into a stronger standing biblically.
Ironically it has been primarily the Reformed scholars who specialize in studying the Pauline epistles that recognize the error of the Reformers. They just realized what most Christians know.
Anyway, this issue has nothing to do with Penal Substitution Theory per se. Stendahl was a Kutheran who held to Satisfaction/ Substitution. But it is a related theory (it is what Penal Substitution Theory sought to reform).
This movement, like Calvinism, carries way too much baggage and tradition.
1. I realize that you have not use for Christ's death. We have discussed this before and again I will say you are wrong.
The Bible tells us why Jesus had to die in order to redeem us. You just reject those passages.
He had to die "so that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives."
2. Yes, God has it sorted out.
3. Why the cross? Because God used it as a symbol in Scripture. When the Isralites considered somebody guilty of a crime worthy of death they were esteemed stricken by God. But we also have history (since you seem so averse to Scripture). If Jesus was actualky cursed by God He would have been murdered under the Law (the punishment fir blasphemy is death by stoning).
But crucifixion was unmistakable - it was the ultimate punishment by the "powers of darkness" at the time (Rome). It was not a punishment prescribed for sin against God but for crimes against an evil and pagan nation.
4. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the World. There is no "how" in that verse because the word is a noun. You mean "why". The reason is in Scripture.
In Him we escape the wrath to come.
We are made new creations in Christ.
He became a life giving spirit.
We are conformed into the image of Christ.
God gives us a new heart, a new spirit, puts His Spirit in us.
There is no condemnation in Christ.
We are clothed in His righteousness.
The mind set on the Spirit is life.
Christ is the Life.
We are reconciled to God in Christ.
5. #4 answered your question.
I know that God's actual words are foolishness to you. You have made that abundantly clear. It is not what God said, in your estimation, that matters but what the men you worship have told you that the Bible teaches.
There is not a person alive who believes thar the Bible teaches "what is written" in the biblical text who will agree with you. You have not even been able to provide one verse that states Jesus suffered God's wrath. And that is just a four word sentence - think about all the other myths you believe.