Christ set forth as a Propitiation

[JonC]

The act you are describing is the laying on of hands in ancient Israelite sacrificial rituals, where a worshiper would place their hand on the head of a sacrificial animal, like a sheep or goat. This ritual symbolized the transfer of sins from the person to the animal, which was seen as a substitute that would die in their place.

• Symbolism:
  The gesture signified a confession of sin and an acceptance of the animal as a substitutionary atonement for the sin. It showed the worshiper's identification with the sacrifice and their dependence on it to cover their guilt.
  
  
• Sin Offering:
  This was a central part of the sin offering described in the Book of Leviticus. By pressing their hand on the animal's head, the individual was, in a symbolic sense, "leaning" or "pressing" their guilt onto the victim.
  
  
• Foreshadowing the future:
  This Old Testament practice is understood by some Christians to foreshadow the work of Jesus Christ, who is described as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world by bearing them on the cross.

No, that is not the act I was describing.

Were I to describe any of those I would say they all foreshadow Christ. He is the Lamb who takes away the sins of the World. He offered up Himself for our sins.

You are trying to twist the OT into your theory, but truely cannot.

The sacrificed animals in the OT did not propiate God. God desired what? The blood of bulls? No, He desired obedience.

 

[JesusFan]

No, that is not the act I was describing.

Were I to describe any of those I would say they all foreshadow Christ. He is the Lamb who takes away the sins of the World. He offered up Himself for our sins.

You are trying to twist the OT into your theory, but truely cannot.

The sacrificed animals in the OT did not propiate God. God desired what? The blood of bulls? No, He desired obedience.

The Entire OT sacrificial system pointed to, foreshadowed the coming messiah, as each feast and festival high lighted to us an aspect of His coming work and ministry, The lamp who died in our stead pointed towards He to come to die in out stead, with our own sins assigned upon himself as that sin offering

 

[JonC]

The Entire OT sacrificial system pointed to, foreshadowed the coming messiah, as each feast and festival high lighted to us an aspect of His coming work and ministry, The lamp who died in our stead pointed towards He to come to die in out stead, with our own sins assigned upon himself as that sin offering

The first part is correct.

In the OT the animals did not die instead of the people. The obedience of the people in sacrificing their best covered their sins (God looked over their sins until Christ). Jesus did not die in our stead (we die, although we die yet shall we live).

My point is either God's wrath is propitiated OR Jesus suffered that wrath. Either He is the Propitiation for our sins OR He was punished instead of us.

You cannot have it both ways. Read your Bible. Use a highlighter. Pick the highlighted words or what men say the Bibke teaches.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yes. It is an illustration.

Well it's a bad illustration. You do not know unless I tell you, whether a free lunch is going to be an acceptable propitiation for your deplorable behaviour towards me (actually, it probably is so long as it is preceded by an apology. I like lunches - especially free ones). But God tells us what is acceptable to Him in Hebrews 9:22, which is Scripture, but to which you have made no reference.

You do not believe that God is propiated.

This is not true, and you know it, or would do if you took the trouble to read my posts.

You use the word, but what you mean is God's wrath was exercised against sin (the opposite of His wrath being propiated).

The word is propitiated, not "propiated." But I do believe that God is propitiated by the death the Lord Jesus Christ. How do I know this? Because God set Him forth as a propitiation.

Here are ways you deny God's words by using your philosophy to change meaning.

Propitiation - used as a translation 3 times to point to Christ AS the Propitiation.

Yes. Where have I ever denied that. I have only stated that God is not propitiated by a free lunch. Do you think He is?

Propitiation is something that propitiates. It is used once as "propitiates" speaking 9f Jesus as the High Priest intercepting for believers if they sin.

It is reconciling two parties, focusing on the offended.

It is specifically an offering that propitiates the offended party (see my various posts on the "mercy seat." But otherwise, yes, other than that Jesus Christ intercedes; He does not intercept.

But you reject that God's wrath and punishment can actually be propitiated. Instead you believe God's wrath and punishment must be exercised (either on sins laid on Christ or on the sinner).

No I don't. I believe Romans 3:25-26. Do you?

Forgiveness- you reject that God is even able to forgive sins. Instead your philosophy teaches you that God must punish sins and to allow the guilty to go free He must punish those sins on somebody else. Forgiveness, to you, is impossible. God punishes the innocent sp that the guilty can escape punishment. That is not forgiveness.

God is able to do whatever He likes as I wrote (and you ignored) in post #77. But God will not forgive sinners without a propitiation. I have offered you Job 42:7-9, Numbers 15:27-31 and Psalm 5:4-6. You have never commented on any of these. Perhaps you don't believe them. Only in Christ, through His blood shed upon the cross, can sins be forgiven.

Forsaken - Psalm 22 deals with God's righteousness servant suffering under evil
. The psalm begins with the servant asking why he is forsaken, continues with him trusting God will never abandon him as God never abandoned his forefathers through their suffering, and concludes with God delivering the servant not from suffering but through suffering. He was forsaken to suffer and die but God never abandoned him

That is correct. Our Lord was forsaken to suffer to the point of death upon the cross. But at the 9th hour, the sun came out again (Luke 23:44). The righteous anger of God, not against Christ, but against sin of which He was the bearer (1 Peter 2:24), was satisfied. Propitiation had been made; It was finished, accomplished; the debt (c.f. Matt. 6:12) that was owed to God's outraged justice had been paid in full (John 19:28-30).

Your philosophy teaches you that God separated from Jesus on the cross, that the relationship ("I and My Father are One") ceased on the cross.

This is utterly untrue, as you know perfectly well if you troubled to read my posts istead of ignoring them and making utterly false claims about me.. It may be what you would like to believe of me, but see above.
See also the post that I made around ten years ago to which you made no replay whatsoever; I suspect you didn't read it. See if I wrote that our Lord's relationship with the Father "ceased on the cross."

The Theological and Biblical Basis of Penal Substitution

Isaiah 53:6. ‘We all like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, into his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.’ Galatians 3:13. ‘Christ has re…

marprelate.wordpress.com

Ypir faith is not only foreign to God's words, it also stands in opposition to God's Word. It is anti-Christian

If what you have falsely claimed about me were true, you might have a point; but you have lied continually about my views and you should be ashamed of yourself. A lie is an abomination to God. But I fear you do not know how to blush (Jer. 8:12).

I know you jave been carried away from the faith by your philosophy. That is what often happens when men determine to lean on their own understanding rather than every word that comes from God
So I do not post for your benefit

You do not post for anyone's benefit, not even your own.

I post for others to evaluate your teachings against "what is written" (every word that comes from God) so they, unlike you, may be delivered from the deception that has carried you away

I am very happy for anyone to evaluate my teachings against the Bible.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@Martin Marprelate

The question for you is why you deny that Jesus is the propitiation for sin, that God set Him forth as a Propitiation in His blood.

You do not believe that God's wrath or punishment even CAN BE propiated.

Instead you believe that our sins were transferred to Christ and punished there. Thar IS NOT sins propitiated (by the very definition of the word).


God's wrath cannot be propiated and expressed. It is one or the other.
God cannot punish sins and still forgive thise sins once punished.

Stop riding the fence eith your "double-speak".

Absolute garbage from start to finish.

 

[JonC]

Absolute garbage from start to finish.

Was God's wrath propitiated or expressed on a Substitute?

Does God forgive sins or does God punish our sins on Christ?

 

[JonC]

Well it's a bad illustration. You do not know unless I tell you, whether a free lunch is going to be an acceptable propitiation for your deplorable behaviour towards me (actually, it probably is so long as it is preceded by an apology. I like lunches - especially free ones). But God tells us what is acceptable to Him in Hebrews 9:22, which is Scripture, but to which you have made no reference.

This is not true, and you know it, or would do if you took the trouble to read my posts.

The word is propitiated, not "propiated." But I do believe that God is propitiated by the death the Lord Jesus Christ. How do I know this? Because God set Him forth as a propitiation.

Yes. Where have I ever denied that. I have only stated that God is not propitiated by a free lunch. Do you think He is?

It is specifically an offering that propitiates the offended party (see my various posts on the "mercy seat." But otherwise, yes, other than that Jesus Christ intercedes; He does not intercept.

No I don't. I believe Romans 3:25-26. Do you?

God is able to do whatever He likes as I wrote (and you ignored) in post #77. But God will not forgive sinners without a propitiation. I have offered you Job 42:7-9, Numbers 15:27-31 and Psalm 5:4-6. You have never commented on any of these. Perhaps you don't believe them. Only in Christ, through His blood shed upon the cross, can sins be forgiven.

That is correct. Our Lord was forsaken to suffer to the point of death upon the cross. But at the 9th hour, the sun came out again (Luke 23:44). The righteous anger of God, not against Christ, but against sin of which He was the bearer (1 Peter 2:24), was satisfied. Propitiation had been made; It was finished, accomplished; the debt (c.f. Matt. 6:12) that was owed to God's outraged justice had been paid in full (John 19:28-30).

This is utterly untrue, as you know perfectly well if you troubled to read my posts istead of ignoring them and making utterly false claims about me.. It may be what you would like to believe of me, but see above.
See also the post that I made around ten years ago to which you made no replay whatsoever; I suspect you didn't read it. See if I wrote that our Lord's relationship with the Father "ceased on the cross."

The Theological and Biblical Basis of Penal Substitution

Isaiah 53:6. ‘We all like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, into his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.’ Galatians 3:13. ‘Christ has re…

marprelate.wordpress.com

If what you have falsely claimed about me were true, you might have a point; but you have lied continually about my views and you should be ashamed of yourself. A lie is an abomination to God. But I fear you do not know how to blush (Jer. 8:12).

You do not post for anyone's benefit, not even your own.

I am very happy for anyone to evaluate my teachings against the Bible.

It is an illustration (assuming the lunch would reconcile the relationship).

What have I claimed about you?

1. You believe Jesus suffered God's wrath
2. You believe Jesus suffered God's punishment for our sins
3. You believe there was a seperation between the Father and Son on the cross.

If you deny those 3 points, then we probably agree on more than you think.

If you do not deny those 3 points then I have a point and you ate making a false accusation to hide that fact.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Was God's wrath propitiated or expressed on a Substitute?

Does God forgive sins or does God punish our sins on Christ?

Christ is the propitiation for our sins, and there is no other. Romans 3:25. [Christ Jesus] whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood.'
There is no other name by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12) and there is no other way to be saved than through His blood shed for sinners on the cross as a propitiation to God (Hebrews 9:22), 'that He might be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.'.
God does forgive sinners, but only on the basis of strict justice, so that it van be written, 'Mercy and truth have met together; righteousness and peace have kissed. Truth shall spring out of the earth, and righteousness shalllook down from heaven' (Psalm 85:10-11).

 

[JonC]

Christ is the propitiation for our sins, and there is no other. Romans 3:25. [Christ Jesus] whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood.'
There is no other name by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12) and there is no other way to be saved than through His blood shed for sinners on the cross as a propitiation to God (Hebrews 9:22), 'that He might be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.'.
God does forgive sinners, but only on the basis of strict justice, so that it van be written, 'Mercy and truth have met together; righteousness and peace have kissed. Truth shall spring out of the earth, and righteousness shalllook down from heaven' (Psalm 85:10-11).

We have some agreement.

1. We agree that Jesus did not experience God's wrath or punishment.
Instead Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. God set Him forth as a propitiation by His blood. There is no other name by which we must be saved.

2. And yes, we agree that God's work of redemotion that was concealed or known only in part in the past has been revealed in Christ. Apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed. The Law and the Prophets testified of it, but it is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those]who believe; for there is no distinction, for all ]have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.

We akso agree that the reson was to demonstrate His righteousness because in God’s merciful restraint He let the sins previously committed go unpunished. This was for the demonstration, that is, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

3. We agree that Psalm 85 testifies to this salvation which was to come.

You withdrew all Your fury; You turned away from Your burning anger....Restore us, God of our salvation,
And cause Your indignation toward us to cease...Show us Your mercy, Lord, and grant us Your salvation... I will hear what God the Lord will say; For He will speak peace to His people, to His godly ones;And may they not turn back to foolishness. Certainly His salvation is near to those who fear Him,That glory may dwell in our land Graciousness and truth have met together; Righteousness and peace have kissed each other.... Righteousness will go before Him, And will make His footsteps into a way.


Men change their understanding. This is proper as we see now as through a glass dimly.

I had not realized you no longer believe that Jesus experienced God's wrath but have come to accept that wrath as propitiated.

I had not realized you no longer believe that God punished our sins laid on Christ but instead now believe that God forgives our sins.


So you have my apology. We agree that Jesus did not suffer God's wrath, that God did not punish our sins laid on Jesud. God's wrath is instead propitiated and God forgives based on repentance (turning to Christ, given a new heart) which is accomplished through the blood of Christ.

Welcome back to Christianity, @Martin Marprelate It is good to have you here. I was wrong to think your heart had been hardened, that having been carried so far away from the faith you would not return. But I rejoice in that mistake as I prayed it was not correct.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

It is an illustration (assuming the lunch would reconcile the relationship).

It is a bad illustration because you do not know if I would be reconciled by a free lunch. We know that God is satisfied
But perhaps the more important point is that the lunch is a propitiation, an offering to turn away righteous anger. In that you are correct. God set the Lord Jesus Christ forth as a propitiation 'by His blood.' The blood stands for His suffering and death, and it is that by which God is propitiated.

What have I claimed about you?

You have claimed a large number of things about me, including likening my faith to that of a Mormon, and a pile of other insults. I have responded in like kind, which was probably not the best thing to do, but I have offered to call a truce on the insults, but you have made no answer.

1. You believe Jesus suffered God's wrath

God is not angry with the Lord Jesus; He never ceased to be the Beloved Son. God is angry at sin and with sinners. But part of the propition in Christ's blood was that all our sins were laid upon Him and He bore them, and the curse attached to them in His flesh on the cross, thereby suffering God's wrath against sin.

2. You believe Jesus suffered God's punishment for our sins

Yes. That is what you have described as a "free lunch." God has found away to magnify His law and make it honourable, while at the same time pardoning guilty sinners. In the Letter to Philemon, Paul, wishing to mediate between Philemon and his runaway slave Onesimus, says, 'If He has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me' (v.18). This effectively is what the Lord Jesus says to His Father (c.f. Romans 5:6; Phil. 2:6-8), except that there is nothing 'iffy' about the wrong done to God's justice, or the debt of righteousness we owe and are unable to pay.

One other point. You have said that Penal Substitution means that God does not really forgive sins. This ignores the fact that it is in fact God Himself, in the Person of Jesus Christ who pays the debt we owe, so that guilty sinners like us may be forgiven. That P.S. accords with strict justice is also vital in the defeat of satan, but perhaps it will be better to make a new thread on that.

3. You believe there was a seperation between the Father and Son on the cross.

Yes. We have the plain words of Scripture (Psalm 2:1-2; Matt. 27:46), coupled with the necessity for Christ to suffer the penalty applicable to sinners.
Some writers (Joel Green, Mrk Baker, Tom Smail, Paul Fiddes) have suggested that the temporary forsaking of the Son by the Father would somehow 'break' the Trinity. This is nonsense, They are two separate Persons and the have an asynnetric relationship. The Father sends the Son; the Son does not send the Father. The Son prays to the Father; the Father does not pray to the Son and so forth. On the cross, Father and Son combined together to save sinful humanity, but they did not do so in the same way. I wrote on this in depth about 10 years ago on this board and then put it on my blog. Penal Substitution and the Trinity

If you deny those 3 points, then we probably agree on more than you think.

I do not deny them, and we don't agree.

If you do not deny those 3 points then I have a point and you ate making a false accusation to hide that fact.

You do not have a point, and even if you do there is no reason for you to make cheap jibes and false allegations about my beliefs. It is OK for us to disagree, but we should do so civilly. I will if you will.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

1. We agree that Jesus did not experience God's wrath or punishment.

I don't think you'll find that we do.

 

[JonC]

It is a bad illustration because you do not know if I would be reconciled by a free lunch. We know that God is satisfied
But perhaps the more important point is that the lunch is a propitiation, an offering to turn away righteous anger. In that you are correct. God set the Lord Jesus Christ forth as a propitiation 'by His blood.' The blood stands for His suffering and death, and it is that by which God is propitiated.

You have claimed a large number of things about me, including likening my faith to that of a Mormon, and a pile of other insults. I have responded in like kind, which was probably not the best thing to do, but I have offered to call a truce on the insults, but you have made no answer.

God is not angry with the Lord Jesus; He never ceased to be the Beloved Son. God is angry at sin and with sinners. But part of the propition in Christ's blood was that all our sins were laid upon Him and He bore them, and the curse attached to them in His flesh on the cross, thereby suffering God's wrath against sin.

Yes. That is what you have described as a "free lunch." God has found away to magnify His law and make it honourable, while at the same time pardoning guilty sinners. In the Letter to Philemon, Paul, wishing to mediate between Philemon and his runaway slave Onesimus, says, 'If He has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me' (v.18). This effectively is what the Lord Jesus says to His Father (c.f. Romans 5:6; Phil. 2:6-8), except that there is nothing 'iffy' about the wrong done to God's justice, or the debt of righteousness we owe and are unable to pay.

One other point. You have said that Penal Substitution means that God does not really forgive sins. This ignores the fact that it is in fact God Himself, in the Person of Jesus Christ who pays the debt we owe, so that guilty sinners like us may be forgiven. That P.S. accords with strict justice is also vital in the defeat of satan, but perhaps it will be better to make a new thread on that.

Yes. We have the plain words of Scripture (Psalm 2:1-2; Matt. 27:46), coupled with the necessity for Christ to suffer the penalty applicable to sinners.
Some writers (Joel Green, Mrk Baker, Tom Smail, Paul Fiddes) have suggested that the temporary forsaking of the Son by the Father would somehow 'break' the Trinity. This is nonsense, They are two separate Persons and the have an asynnetric relationship. The Father sends the Son; the Son does not send the Father. The Son prays to the Father; the Father does not pray to the Son and so forth. On the cross, Father and Son combined together to save sinful humanity, but they did not do so in the same way. I wrote on this in depth about 10 years ago on this board and then put it on my blog. Penal Substitution and the Trinity


I do not deny them, and we don't agree.

You do not have a point, and even if you do there is no reason for you to make cheap jibes and false allegations about my beliefs. It is OK for us to disagree, but we should do so civilly. I will if you will.

Wait...

So you deny that Jesus is the Propitiation for our sin even after having repeated that passage?!! You ate on very dangerous ground.

Either sin is propitiated or it is punished. Either God's wrath is propitiated or it is expressed. You cannot have it both ways. One cannot propitiate wrath by experiencing wrath (if the wrath is experienced it is not propitiated).

You are denying Scripture via "double-speak".


You pretend that God's wrath is propitiated by Jesus experiencing God's wrath (opposing terms, you really mean "substituted). You pretend that God forgives sins by punishing sins. Double-speak.


As far as justice goes, on this we agree. God is just and justifies sinners.

But where you believe this is the righteousness of God through the Law I belueve it is the righteousness of God manifested aoart from the Law.

How?

We are made new creations in Christ, conformed into the image of Christ, reborn, we die to the flesh, are born of the Spirit, God removes our old heart and gives us a new heart, God removes our old spirit snd gives us a new spirit, God puts His Spirit in us, Christ became a life giving Spirit.

While you are a Sadducee trapped in the Law, blinded by your own philosophy, God did what you belueve is foolish. He recreated man. The guilty "old man" will not exist on the Day of Wrath. A new creation made in the image of Christ will exist and will inherit life.


The reason you cannot comprehend this is you have assigned to God a 16th century judicial philosophy that views the judge as a servant to justice as a type of supreme entity. Just as this entity makes demands on the judge to maintain a proper balance, you view justice as making demands on God.

You miss out on the Way, the righteousness of God manifested aoart from the Law which fulfills the Law itself.

God would be unjust to punish this new creation made in the image of Christ for the sins of the "old man" who no longer exists.

You are engaged in idolatry.

 

[JonC]

I don't think you'll find that we do.

Yes, I realize that. I apologize for my apology

A propitiation is something that propitiates.
Jesus is not the Propitiation for our sins without propitiating for our sins.

God's wrath towards us IS propiated in and by Christ.

His wrath was not expressed towards our sins and then propiated as there would be no wrath to be propiated.
His wrath was not propitiated and then expressed as there woukd be no wrath to express.
Jesus could not propitiate for our sins and experience that punishment because these words cintrafict one another.

God cannot punish our sins on Christ and then forgive those sins because this would not be forgiveness.

You jave put all of your hopes in human philosophy. You will be disappointed.

You have placed all of your hope in the philosophy men have told you the Bible really teaches. You will be disappointed.

You lean on your own understanding while dismissing every word that comes from God. You will be disappointed.

You have been carried away from the faith by philosophy. You allowed this. I hope and pray you will return to God's words.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Wait...

So you deny that Jesus is the Propitiation for our sin even after having repeated that passage?!! You ate on very dangerous ground.

Of course I do not. The Bible clearly states that the Lord Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and that God set Him forth as a propitiation by His blood.

Either sin is propitiated or it is punished. Either God's wrath is propitiated or it is expressed. You cannot have it both ways. One cannot propitiate wrath by experiencing wrath (if the wrath is experienced it is not propitiated).

You are denying Scripture via "double-speak".

Well I think that this is your "philosophy." The Bible does not state that God's wrath is "propitiated or it is expressed." This is something you have made up all on your own.

You pretend that God's wrath is propitiated by Jesus experiencing God's wrath (opposing terms, you really mean "substituted). You pretend that God forgives sins by punishing sins. Double-speak.

Not double-speak at all. The Lord Jesus has propitiated God's anger by willingly bearing our sins and paying the penalty in full. Therefore God is now propitious towards guilty sinners like you and me. You have no right to tell God what propitiation is; He has told you.

As far as justice goes, on this we agree. God is just and justifies sinners.

But where you believe this is the righteousness of God through the Law I belueve it is the righteousness of God manifested aoart from the Law.

I believe that the Lord is well pleased for His righteousness' sake. He has magnified the law and made it honourable. I think you missunderstand Romans 3:21. 'Apart from the law' does not mean that God sacrifices His own justice; it means that it is not, and cannot be, earned by the our obedience to the law. God's righteousness remains inviolate, because Christ has satisfied God's justice on our behalf.

How?

We are made new creations in Christ, conformed into the image of Christ, reborn, we die to the flesh, are born of the Spirit, God removes our old heart and gives us a new heart, God removes our old spirit snd gives us a new spirit, God puts His Spirit in us, Christ became a life giving Spirit.

God does all that, but if that is all He does, then He is not just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus. First, Christ suffers, dies, rises and ascends, then God sends the Holy Spirit do do all the stuff you describe (John 16:7; Acts 2:33).

While you are a Sadducee trapped in the Law, blinded by your own philosophy, God did what you belueve is foolish. He recreated man. The guilty "old man" will not exist on the Day of Wrath. A new creation made in the image of Christ will exist and will inherit life.

Heigh-ho! More mindless insults. Never mind.

The reason you cannot comprehend this is you have assigned to God a 16th century judicial philosophy that views the judge as a servant to justice as a type of supreme entity. Just as this entity makes demands on the judge to maintain a proper balance, you view justice as making demands on God.

One needs to be cautious in saying that there is something that God cannot do, but 2 Timothy 2:13 tells us that He cannot deny Himself. He is the very epitome of justice, and therefore He cannot be unjust by justifying the wicked without punishment.

You miss out on the Way, the righteousness of God manifested aoart from the Law which fulfills the Law itself.

God would be unjust to punish this new creation made in the image of Christ for the sins of the "old man" who no longer exists.

The new humanity only comes about because Christ has satisfied Divine justice as I explained above

You are engaged in idolatry.

 

[JonC]

Of course I do not. The Bible clearly states that the Lord Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and that God set Him forth as a propitiation by His blood.

Well I think that this is your "philosophy." The Bible does not state that God's wrath is "propitiated or it is expressed." This is something you have made up all on your own.

Not double-speak at all. The Lord Jesus has propitiated God's anger by willingly bearing our sins and paying the penalty in full. Therefore God is now propitious towards guilty sinners like you and me. You have no right to tell God what propitiation is; He has told you.

I believe that the Lord is well pleased for His righteousness' sake. He has magnified the law and made it honourable. I think you missunderstand Romans 3:21. 'Apart from the law' does not mean that God sacrifices His own justice; it means that it is not, and cannot be, earned by the our obedience to the law. God's righteousness remains inviolate, because Christ has satisfied God's justice on our behalf.

God does all that, but if that is all He does, then He is not just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus. First, Christ suffers, dies, rises and ascends, then God sends the Holy Spirit do do all the stuff you describe (John 16:7; Acts 2:33).

Heigh-ho! More mindless insults. Never mind.

One needs to be cautious in saying that there is something that God cannot do, but 2 Timothy 2:13 tells us that He cannot deny Himself. He is the very epitome of justice, and therefore He cannot be unjust by justifying the wicked without punishment.

The new humanity only comes about because Christ has satisfied Divine justice as I explained above

Of course the Bible does not say Jesus experienced God's wrath. Thr Bible says Heis the Propitiation.

Men have taught you that God forgives sins by not forgiving sins but instead punishes sins o a substitute to allow the sinner to escape punishment.

Men have taught you that God's wrath is propitiated by not being propitiated but instead by being experienced by a substitute.

At the core of your faith rests a 16th century secular judicial philosophy that exists today only withi Calvin's theory.
The reason you cannot understand "what is written", the "words that come from God" and instead trust in "your own understanding" is that the natural cannot understand the spiritual.


You have proven this with your posts.

You only "accept God's words with the qualification "but this is what it really means".

You cannot find your faith in "the words that come forth from God" so you find it in philosophy. You have been carried away by your philosophy.

Has your heart been hardened against God's words? Will you hear :I never knew you"? Or is it not too late for you to turn from "leaning on your own understanding" and to "every word that comes forth from God"? I have no clue.

I am instead using you as an example to others who may read this thread. Lean not on your understanding but on every word that comes from God. Test doctrine against "what is written" lest you be carried away from the faith by philosophy.

Hold your understanding at arms length. Trust in God and God's words. We do not yet fully understand, but He will make us stand.

Take a highlighter. Grab your copy of God's Word. Try to highlight in your Bible the faith of @Martin Marprelate and you will never pick up that pen. Continue holding on to his faith and you may become as he appears to be.

God's Word demands respect because they are God's words.

 

[JesusFan]

Of course the Bible does not say Jesus experienced God's wrath. Thr Bible says Heis the Propitiation.

Men have taught you that God forgives sins by not forgiving sins but instead punishes sins o a substitute to allow the sinner to escape punishment.

Men have taught you that God's wrath is propitiated by not being propitiated but instead by being experienced by a substitute.

At the core of your faith rests a 16th century secular judicial philosophy that exists today only withi Calvin's theory.
The reason you cannot understand "what is written", the "words that come from God" and instead trust in "your own understanding" is that the natural cannot understand the spiritual.


You have proven this with your posts.

You only "accept God's words with the qualification "but this is what it really means".

You cannot find your faith in "the words that come forth from God" so you find it in philosophy. You have been carried away by your philosophy.

Has your heart been hardened against God's words? Will you hear :I never knew you"? Or is it not too late for you to turn from "leaning on your own understanding" and to "every word that comes forth from God"? I have no clue.

I am instead using you as an example to others who may read this thread. Lean not on your understanding but on every word that comes from God. Test doctrine against "what is written" lest you be carried away from the faith by philosophy.

Hold your understanding at arms length. Trust in God and God's words. We do not yet fully understand, but He will make us stand.

Take a highlighter. Grab your copy of God's Word. Try to highlight in your Bible the faith of @Martin Marprelate and you will never pick up that pen. Continue holding on to his faith and you may become as he appears to be.

God's Word demands respect because they are God's words.

Do you think that it would be unfair to have God the Father vent His holy Wrath upon the lord Jesus then? It would be "cosmic child abuse?"
And once again, Jesus willingly received that as our sin bearer, was not forced to do that upon that Cross
and for the 100th time, where did your and mine earned and deserved wraith of God towards us go?

Of course I do not. The Bible clearly states that the Lord Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and that God set Him forth as a propitiation by His blood.

Well I think that this is your "philosophy." The Bible does not state that God's wrath is "propitiated or it is expressed." This is something you have made up all on your own.

Not double-speak at all. The Lord Jesus has propitiated God's anger by willingly bearing our sins and paying the penalty in full. Therefore God is now propitious towards guilty sinners like you and me. You have no right to tell God what propitiation is; He has told you.

I believe that the Lord is well pleased for His righteousness' sake. He has magnified the law and made it honourable. I think you missunderstand Romans 3:21. 'Apart from the law' does not mean that God sacrifices His own justice; it means that it is not, and cannot be, earned by the our obedience to the law. God's righteousness remains inviolate, because Christ has satisfied God's justice on our behalf.

God does all that, but if that is all He does, then He is not just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus. First, Christ suffers, dies, rises and ascends, then God sends the Holy Spirit do do all the stuff you describe (John 16:7; Acts 2:33).

Heigh-ho! More mindless insults. Never mind.

One needs to be cautious in saying that there is something that God cannot do, but 2 Timothy 2:13 tells us that He cannot deny Himself. He is the very epitome of justice, and therefore He cannot be unjust by justifying the wicked without punishment.

The new humanity only comes about because Christ has satisfied Divine justice as I explained above

I am so very curious to see if we surveyed from say the time of the reformation to now, reformed, Baptists and Evangelicals in general, how many would agree with us on JonC on the view of the Atonement?

Of course the Bible does not say Jesus experienced God's wrath. Thr Bible says Heis the Propitiation.

Men have taught you that God forgives sins by not forgiving sins but instead punishes sins o a substitute to allow the sinner to escape punishment.

Men have taught you that God's wrath is propitiated by not being propitiated but instead by being experienced by a substitute.

At the core of your faith rests a 16th century secular judicial philosophy that exists today only withi Calvin's theory.
The reason you cannot understand "what is written", the "words that come from God" and instead trust in "your own understanding" is that the natural cannot understand the spiritual.


You have proven this with your posts.

You only "accept God's words with the qualification "but this is what it really means".

You cannot find your faith in "the words that come forth from God" so you find it in philosophy. You have been carried away by your philosophy.

Has your heart been hardened against God's words? Will you hear :I never knew you"? Or is it not too late for you to turn from "leaning on your own understanding" and to "every word that comes forth from God"? I have no clue.

I am instead using you as an example to others who may read this thread. Lean not on your understanding but on every word that comes from God. Test doctrine against "what is written" lest you be carried away from the faith by philosophy.

Hold your understanding at arms length. Trust in God and God's words. We do not yet fully understand, but He will make us stand.

Take a highlighter. Grab your copy of God's Word. Try to highlight in your Bible the faith of @Martin Marprelate and you will never pick up that pen. Continue holding on to his faith and you may become as he appears to be.

God's Word demands respect because they are God's words.

Are the sinners being "punished" by the wrath of God in hell then? And before we got saved, we were right there in that condition, so what allows God to now justify us?

 

[JonC]

Do you think that it would be unfair to have God the Father vent His holy Wrath upon the lord Jesus then? It would be "cosmic child abuse?"
And once again, Jesus willingly received that as our sin bearer, was not forced to do that upon that Cross
and for the 100th time, where did your and mine earned and deserved wraith of God towards us go?

@JesusFan

How many times have you asked me if I thought it woukd be unfair to have God the Father vent His holy Wrath upon the lord Jesus, that it would be "cosmic child abuse?"

Ten? Twenty?

How many times have I told you that I it would not be unfair and that those who claim it is "cosmic child abuse" do not understand Calvinism?

Ten? Twenty?


Let this be the last time, please.

No, I do not believe it would be unfair or amount to cosmic child abuse.


It is, however, not in God's words (the "words that come from God", "what is written") and it is a teaching very different from what the Bible teaches if the Bible teaches "what is written" (God's words).

It also calls into question the righteousness of God (God would have committed an "abomination" by clearing the guilty and punishing the righteous).

 

[JonC]

Are the sinners being "punished" by the wrath of God in hell then? And before we got saved, we were right there in that condition, so what allows God to now justify us?

No, the lost are not currently in Hell. No, before we were saved we were not in Hell.

The wicked will be raised to condemnation while those of us who are in Christ will be raised to life. The wicked store up wrath for themselves for the Day of Wrath. God will separate peoole.

One grouo, those in Christ, ate not guilty of the sins of the "old man", they have been refined as gold and silver is refined, they have been made new creations in Christ, they have been conformed to the image of Christ. These will inherit life.

The other group, the wicked, will experience the wrath they have stored up for themselves. They will be cast into the Lake of Fire which has been prepared for Satan and his demons. This is the Second death.


What allows God to justify us? Christ Himself. He is the Propitiation for our sins. God set Him forth as a propitiation in His blood. He became a life giving spirit. In Him we have life. In Him we are made new creations. In Him we are chosen.

 

[JonC]

I am so very curious to see if we surveyed from say the time of the reformation to now, reformed, Baptists and Evangelicals in general, how many would agree with us on JonC on the view of the Atonement?

Now? Several Reformed people (mostly Presbyterian) woukd agree with me, but this is a small group trying to being their faith closer to Scripture (the "reform the Reformed" guys). I doubt any Reformed Baptists would agree.

There are many Baptist groups that agree with me. If you look at early Baptists all of them agreed with me. Today, I think most Western Baptists would disagree with me.

BUT, to quote Spurgeon, "men go to Hell in the lump, they go to Heaven individually".

This does not mean all who hold Calvin's theories are carried away by their philosophy. I believe most are not. I was one of those that were not, but I believe I was on that path.

That said, there are many who have been carried away from the faith by these philosophies. They cannot highlight their faith in the Bible (in God's actual words, verbatim) either. And "on that day" they will cry out "Lord, Lord", only to hear "I never knew you". That is the danger of abandoning "what is written" ("every word that comes from God") in favor of what men say the Bible teaches (ones "own understanding", philosophy).

 

[JonC]

You may be interested to know that 'witches' were frequently drowned rather than burned.

Swimming a Witch: Evidence in 17th-century English Witchcraft Trials | In Custodia Legis

Nathan discusses the use of the swimming test in 17th-century witch trials

blogs.loc.gov

Who are you who are so wise in the ways of science?