Christ set forth as a Propitiation

[JonC]

@Martin Marprelate

The question for you is why you deny that Jesus is the propitiation for sin, that God set Him forth as a Propitiation in His blood.

You do not believe that God's wrath or punishment even CAN BE propiated.

Instead you believe that our sins were transferred to Christ and punished there. Thar IS NOT sins propitiated (by the very definition of the word).


God's wrath cannot be propiated and expressed. It is one or the other.
God cannot punish sins and still forgive thise sins once punished.

Stop riding the fence eith your "double-speak".

 

[JesusFan]

Yes. It is an illustration.

You do not believe that God is propiated. You use the word, but what you mean is God's wrath was exercised against sin (the opposite of His wrath being propiated).

Here are ways you deny God's words by using your philosophy to change meaning.

Propitiation - used as a translation 3 times to point ro Christ AS the Propitiation.

Propitiation is something that propitiates. It is used once as "propitiates" speaking 9f Jesus as the High Priest intercepting for believers if they sin.

It is reconciling two parties, focusing on the offended.

But you reject that God's wrath and punishment can actually be propitiated. Instead you believe God's wrath and punishment must be exercised (either on sins laid on Christ or on the sinner).

Forgiveness- you reject that God is even able to forgive sins. Instead your philosophy teaches you that God must punish sins and to allow the guilty to go free He must punish those sins on somebody else. Forgiveness, to you, is impossible. God punishes the innocent sp that the guilty can escape punishment. That is not forgiveness.

Forsaken - Psalm 22 deals with God's righteousness servant suffering under evil
. The psalm begins with the servant asking why he is forsaken, continues with him trusting God will never abandon him as God never abandoned his forefathers through their suffering, and concludes with God delivering the servant not from suffering but through suffering. He was forsaken to suffer and die but God never abandoned him

Your philosophy teaches you that God separated from Jesus on the cross, that the relationship ("I and My Father are One") ceased on the cross.



Ypir faith is not only foreign to God's words, it also stands in opposition to God's Word. It is anti-Christian


I know you jave been carried away from the faith by your philosophy. That is what often happens when men determine to lean on their own understanding rather than every word that comes from God
So I do not post for your benefit

I post for others to evaluate your teachings against "what is written" (every word that comes from God) so they, unlike you, may be delivered from the deception that has carried you away

The wrath of God is piled up towards ALL until either they pay for it directly themselves, or someone else willing to bear it
God cannot just forgive sins without there be a basis for it, as Jesus atonement provides for that very basis, NOT sinner repenting
Jesus quoted that messianic Psalm as the One who endured that very act of seperation for our sake, as THAT was ewhat he dreaded the most about taking upon Himself our die wrath, that when he was sin bearing, woudl face seperation as every lost sinner in hell will have to endure

We stand in the line of the reformers and fellow Baptists who for centuries found delight in psa, as that alone grants us assurance of forgiveness of our sins

And ask yourself this, should fellow Christians be belittling others here?

@Martin Marprelate

The question for you is why you deny that Jesus is the propitiation for sin, that God set Him forth as a Propitiation in His blood.

You do not believe that God's wrath or punishment even CAN BE propiated.

Instead you believe that our sins were transferred to Christ and punished there. Thar IS NOT sins propitiated (by the very definition of the word).


God's wrath cannot be propiated and expressed. It is one or the other.
God cannot punish sins and still forgive thise sins once punished.

Stop riding the fence eith your "double-speak".

The wrath of God is appeased/satisfied thru the shed blood of Jesus upon that Cross, as we who are the saved in Him do a transaction with Him at that Cross, as he received my earned and due wrath and judgement, while in exghange I receive His sinless Righteous to to keeping fully the Law of God

@Martin Marprelate

The question for you is why you deny that Jesus is the propitiation for sin, that God set Him forth as a Propitiation in His blood.

You do not believe that God's wrath or punishment even CAN BE propiated.

Instead you believe that our sins were transferred to Christ and punished there. Thar IS NOT sins propitiated (by the very definition of the word).


God's wrath cannot be propiated and expressed. It is one or the other.
God cannot punish sins and still forgive thise sins once punished.

Stop riding the fence eith your "double-speak".

The act you are describing is the laying on of hands in ancient Israelite sacrificial rituals, where a worshiper would place their hand on the head of a sacrificial animal, like a sheep or goat. This ritual symbolized the transfer of sins from the person to the animal, which was seen as a substitute that would die in their place.

• Symbolism:
  The gesture signified a confession of sin and an acceptance of the animal as a substitutionary atonement for the sin. It showed the worshiper's identification with the sacrifice and their dependence on it to cover their guilt.
  
  
• Sin Offering:
  This was a central part of the sin offering described in the Book of Leviticus. By pressing their hand on the animal's head, the individual was, in a symbolic sense, "leaning" or "pressing" their guilt onto the victim.
  
  
• Foreshadowing the future:
  This Old Testament practice is understood by some Christians to foreshadow the work of Jesus Christ, who is described as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world by bearing them on the cross.

 

[JonC]

The wrath of God is piled up towards ALL until either they pay for it directly themselves, or someone else willing to bear it
God cannot just forgive sins without there be a basis for it, as Jesus atonement provides for that very basis, NOT sinner repenting
Jesus quoted that messianic Psalm as the One who endured that very act of seperation for our sake, as THAT was ewhat he dreaded the most about taking upon Himself our die wrath, that when he was sin bearing, woudl face seperation as every lost sinner in hell will have to endure

We stand in the line of the reformers and fellow Baptists who for centuries found delight in psa, as that alone grants us assurance of forgiveness of our sins

And ask yourself this, should fellow Christians be belittling others here?

Do you believe that Jesus propitiated that wrath or do you believe He suffered that wrath?

I also stand in the line of Baotists for centuries (a bit longer than your line goes back).
You do not stand in line with "the regormers" (you do not stand in line with Luther, Huss, Grumbach, Melanchthon, Wycliffe, Savonarola, or Tyndale, for example). You stand in the line of Calvin and those who followed his philosophy.


Look....it is EASY -

Either Christ is the Propitiation for our sins OR Christ suffered the punishment for our sins. You cannot have it both ways.

Which is it? Sins punished or propitiated?

 

[JonC]

The wrath of God is appeased/satisfied thru the shed blood of Jesus upon that Cross, as we who are the saved in Him do a transaction with Him at that Cross, as he received my earned and due wrath and judgement, while in exghange I receive His sinless Righteous to to keeping fully the Law of God

Either Christ is the propitiation for our sins or God punished our sins laid on Chrust.

Either God set forth Christ as a propitiation in His blood or God punished Jesus for our sins as a substitute.

Either our salvation is God's righteousness manifested APART FROM the Law or we receive His sinless keeping of the Law.

You cannot have it both ways, @JesusFan . Had you chosen to believe a theory in ignorance then maybe. But it has been pointed out to you. You engaged the topic. You asked the questions snd were given God's words. You have to make a choice of what is before you.

Regardless of your response, you will choose who it is you will serve. And that will make all the difference, either way. (When two paths lay before you you cannot help but choose one).

 

[JonC]

The act you are describing is the laying on of hands in ancient Israelite sacrificial rituals, where a worshiper would place their hand on the head of a sacrificial animal, like a sheep or goat. This ritual symbolized the transfer of sins from the person to the animal, which was seen as a substitute that would die in their place.

• Symbolism:
  The gesture signified a confession of sin and an acceptance of the animal as a substitutionary atonement for the sin. It showed the worshiper's identification with the sacrifice and their dependence on it to cover their guilt.
  
  
• Sin Offering:
  This was a central part of the sin offering described in the Book of Leviticus. By pressing their hand on the animal's head, the individual was, in a symbolic sense, "leaning" or "pressing" their guilt onto the victim.
  
  
• Foreshadowing the future:
  This Old Testament practice is understood by some Christians to foreshadow the work of Jesus Christ, who is described as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world by bearing them on the cross.

No, that is not the act I was describing.

Were I to describe any of those I would say they all foreshadow Christ. He is the Lamb who takes away the sins of the World. He offered up Himself for our sins.

You are trying to twist the OT into your theory, but truely cannot.

The sacrificed animals in the OT did not propiate God. God desired what? The blood of bulls? No, He desired obedience.

 

[JesusFan]

No, that is not the act I was describing.

Were I to describe any of those I would say they all foreshadow Christ. He is the Lamb who takes away the sins of the World. He offered up Himself for our sins.

You are trying to twist the OT into your theory, but truely cannot.

The sacrificed animals in the OT did not propiate God. God desired what? The blood of bulls? No, He desired obedience.

The Entire OT sacrificial system pointed to, foreshadowed the coming messiah, as each feast and festival high lighted to us an aspect of His coming work and ministry, The lamp who died in our stead pointed towards He to come to die in out stead, with our own sins assigned upon himself as that sin offering

 

[JonC]

The Entire OT sacrificial system pointed to, foreshadowed the coming messiah, as each feast and festival high lighted to us an aspect of His coming work and ministry, The lamp who died in our stead pointed towards He to come to die in out stead, with our own sins assigned upon himself as that sin offering

The first part is correct.

In the OT the animals did not die instead of the people. The obedience of the people in sacrificing their best covered their sins (God looked over their sins until Christ). Jesus did not die in our stead (we die, although we die yet shall we live).

My point is either God's wrath is propitiated OR Jesus suffered that wrath. Either He is the Propitiation for our sins OR He was punished instead of us.

You cannot have it both ways. Read your Bible. Use a highlighter. Pick the highlighted words or what men say the Bibke teaches.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yes. It is an illustration.

Well it's a bad illustration. You do not know unless I tell you, whether a free lunch is going to be an acceptable propitiation for your deplorable behaviour towards me (actually, it probably is so long as it is preceded by an apology. I like lunches - especially free ones). But God tells us what is acceptable to Him in Hebrews 9:22, which is Scripture, but to which you have made no reference.

You do not believe that God is propiated.

This is not true, and you know it, or would do if you took the trouble to read my posts.

You use the word, but what you mean is God's wrath was exercised against sin (the opposite of His wrath being propiated).

The word is propitiated, not "propiated." But I do believe that God is propitiated by the death the Lord Jesus Christ. How do I know this? Because God set Him forth as a propitiation.

Here are ways you deny God's words by using your philosophy to change meaning.

Propitiation - used as a translation 3 times to point to Christ AS the Propitiation.

Yes. Where have I ever denied that. I have only stated that God is not propitiated by a free lunch. Do you think He is?

Propitiation is something that propitiates. It is used once as "propitiates" speaking 9f Jesus as the High Priest intercepting for believers if they sin.

It is reconciling two parties, focusing on the offended.

It is specifically an offering that propitiates the offended party (see my various posts on the "mercy seat." But otherwise, yes, other than that Jesus Christ intercedes; He does not intercept.

But you reject that God's wrath and punishment can actually be propitiated. Instead you believe God's wrath and punishment must be exercised (either on sins laid on Christ or on the sinner).

No I don't. I believe Romans 3:25-26. Do you?

Forgiveness- you reject that God is even able to forgive sins. Instead your philosophy teaches you that God must punish sins and to allow the guilty to go free He must punish those sins on somebody else. Forgiveness, to you, is impossible. God punishes the innocent sp that the guilty can escape punishment. That is not forgiveness.

God is able to do whatever He likes as I wrote (and you ignored) in post #77. But God will not forgive sinners without a propitiation. I have offered you Job 42:7-9, Numbers 15:27-31 and Psalm 5:4-6. You have never commented on any of these. Perhaps you don't believe them. Only in Christ, through His blood shed upon the cross, can sins be forgiven.

Forsaken - Psalm 22 deals with God's righteousness servant suffering under evil
. The psalm begins with the servant asking why he is forsaken, continues with him trusting God will never abandon him as God never abandoned his forefathers through their suffering, and concludes with God delivering the servant not from suffering but through suffering. He was forsaken to suffer and die but God never abandoned him

That is correct. Our Lord was forsaken to suffer to the point of death upon the cross. But at the 9th hour, the sun came out again (Luke 23:44). The righteous anger of God, not against Christ, but against sin of which He was the bearer (1 Peter 2:24), was satisfied. Propitiation had been made; It was finished, accomplished; the debt (c.f. Matt. 6:12) that was owed to God's outraged justice had been paid in full (John 19:28-30).

Your philosophy teaches you that God separated from Jesus on the cross, that the relationship ("I and My Father are One") ceased on the cross.

This is utterly untrue, as you know perfectly well if you troubled to read my posts istead of ignoring them and making utterly false claims about me.. It may be what you would like to believe of me, but see above.
See also the post that I made around ten years ago to which you made no replay whatsoever; I suspect you didn't read it. See if I wrote that our Lord's relationship with the Father "ceased on the cross."

The Theological and Biblical Basis of Penal Substitution

Isaiah 53:6. ‘We all like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, into his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.’ Galatians 3:13. ‘Christ has re…

marprelate.wordpress.com

Ypir faith is not only foreign to God's words, it also stands in opposition to God's Word. It is anti-Christian

If what you have falsely claimed about me were true, you might have a point; but you have lied continually about my views and you should be ashamed of yourself. A lie is an abomination to God. But I fear you do not know how to blush (Jer. 8:12).

I know you jave been carried away from the faith by your philosophy. That is what often happens when men determine to lean on their own understanding rather than every word that comes from God
So I do not post for your benefit

You do not post for anyone's benefit, not even your own.

I post for others to evaluate your teachings against "what is written" (every word that comes from God) so they, unlike you, may be delivered from the deception that has carried you away

I am very happy for anyone to evaluate my teachings against the Bible.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@Martin Marprelate

The question for you is why you deny that Jesus is the propitiation for sin, that God set Him forth as a Propitiation in His blood.

You do not believe that God's wrath or punishment even CAN BE propiated.

Instead you believe that our sins were transferred to Christ and punished there. Thar IS NOT sins propitiated (by the very definition of the word).


God's wrath cannot be propiated and expressed. It is one or the other.
God cannot punish sins and still forgive thise sins once punished.

Stop riding the fence eith your "double-speak".

Absolute garbage from start to finish.

 

[JonC]

Absolute garbage from start to finish.

Was God's wrath propitiated or expressed on a Substitute?

Does God forgive sins or does God punish our sins on Christ?

 

[JonC]

Well it's a bad illustration. You do not know unless I tell you, whether a free lunch is going to be an acceptable propitiation for your deplorable behaviour towards me (actually, it probably is so long as it is preceded by an apology. I like lunches - especially free ones). But God tells us what is acceptable to Him in Hebrews 9:22, which is Scripture, but to which you have made no reference.

This is not true, and you know it, or would do if you took the trouble to read my posts.

The word is propitiated, not "propiated." But I do believe that God is propitiated by the death the Lord Jesus Christ. How do I know this? Because God set Him forth as a propitiation.

Yes. Where have I ever denied that. I have only stated that God is not propitiated by a free lunch. Do you think He is?

It is specifically an offering that propitiates the offended party (see my various posts on the "mercy seat." But otherwise, yes, other than that Jesus Christ intercedes; He does not intercept.

No I don't. I believe Romans 3:25-26. Do you?

God is able to do whatever He likes as I wrote (and you ignored) in post #77. But God will not forgive sinners without a propitiation. I have offered you Job 42:7-9, Numbers 15:27-31 and Psalm 5:4-6. You have never commented on any of these. Perhaps you don't believe them. Only in Christ, through His blood shed upon the cross, can sins be forgiven.

That is correct. Our Lord was forsaken to suffer to the point of death upon the cross. But at the 9th hour, the sun came out again (Luke 23:44). The righteous anger of God, not against Christ, but against sin of which He was the bearer (1 Peter 2:24), was satisfied. Propitiation had been made; It was finished, accomplished; the debt (c.f. Matt. 6:12) that was owed to God's outraged justice had been paid in full (John 19:28-30).

This is utterly untrue, as you know perfectly well if you troubled to read my posts istead of ignoring them and making utterly false claims about me.. It may be what you would like to believe of me, but see above.
See also the post that I made around ten years ago to which you made no replay whatsoever; I suspect you didn't read it. See if I wrote that our Lord's relationship with the Father "ceased on the cross."

The Theological and Biblical Basis of Penal Substitution

Isaiah 53:6. ‘We all like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, into his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.’ Galatians 3:13. ‘Christ has re…

marprelate.wordpress.com

If what you have falsely claimed about me were true, you might have a point; but you have lied continually about my views and you should be ashamed of yourself. A lie is an abomination to God. But I fear you do not know how to blush (Jer. 8:12).

You do not post for anyone's benefit, not even your own.

I am very happy for anyone to evaluate my teachings against the Bible.

It is an illustration (assuming the lunch would reconcile the relationship).

What have I claimed about you?

1. You believe Jesus suffered God's wrath
2. You believe Jesus suffered God's punishment for our sins
3. You believe there was a seperation between the Father and Son on the cross.

If you deny those 3 points, then we probably agree on more than you think.

If you do not deny those 3 points then I have a point and you ate making a false accusation to hide that fact.