KenH
Well-Known Member
With my puny human brain? Of course not.
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If God is Not Sovereign, Then There is No Grace
- Thread starter KenH
- Start date
With my puny human brain? Of course not.
KenH
Well-Known Member
KenH
Well-Known Member
I was not deflecting.
No, I just disagree with your false gospel.
I was simply proving that you can't just assume every time you see the word "all" that it means every person on earth, as obviously in Luke 2:1 it does not.
KenH
Well-Known Member
True. Those opposed to salvation by the free sovereign grace of God, including the Biblical truth of particular redemption, try to run away from the logical conclusion that arises from their teaching that Christ paid the sin debt of every person that will ever live, namely, that if Christ paid the sin debt for every person who will ever live, then every person who will ever live will be, must be, saved. That is the logical conclusion of their false teaching, regardless of how much they try in vain to deny it.
I know you're a good person, Ken, but that is some messed up theology you're following right there!
A total misunderstanding of God's sovereignty. What a mess it is!
I've addressed this statement by Price before. as I remember on two occasions.
You're determined to follow, and so be it.
Charlie24 can't fix this, and I'll not address any more of your Calvinist beliefs.
Ascetic X
Active Member
The fact that Jesus did indeed die for all the sins of all humanity does not mean every person will automatically be saved. Each person has to trust in Christ individually. If Christ died only for the elect, which is not substantiated by any Bible verse, then the unsaved have an excuse for not responding to the gospel.
The sin debt for all has been paid, but that freedom from sin debt is only activated and valid for a person when they repent and trust in the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. I can put a million dollars on your front porch, but it does you no good if you never go out and get it.
I Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.
Romans 6:10
The death He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life He lives, He lives to God.
Romans 5:6-8
For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die.
But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
John MacArthur Contradicts Calvinism | Dr. Leighton Flowers | Soteriology 101
Dr. Leighton Flowers plays two sermons by Dr. John MacArthur which seem to present a blatant contradiction. One argues for Calvinism's doctrine of total mora...
www.youtube.com
I give you John MacArthur to answer some of the question.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Jumping from one verse to another in the attempt to support your view that ALL in John 12:32 means elect is deflecting
It is not my gospel Ken. It is the word of God.
You should take your own advice Ken. I have never said or assumed that ALL always means all people on earth but then again I do not see it meaning the elect either.
You have to look at the context to see what it means. I have found that many calvinists read into the text and force it to agree with their view.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
The whole world of the elect, in other words the atonement was not just national in scope but international, covering a people located throughout the world.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Those that freely believe are from all over the world. The atonement was for all of humanity BF. You continue e to miss that point.
The atonement made salvation possible for anyone that would trust in God.
Ever notice Calvinists say something in one post and then deny they said it in another. This ploy is to change the subject from the topic of the thread.
Salvation by Merit is the Mythological Strawman Religion concocted by the Calvinists. Oh how they love to rail against the enlightenment of those not chosen.
Rather than salvation by grace through faith, it is salvation by grace devoid of faith.
They claim God is not so sovereign that He can allow autonomous choices to believe fully or not. Nope, the Calvinists claim they are sovereign over God. When God says many will seek the narrow door, they rewrite His very words to say, Nope, no lost person ever seeks God.
Faith is according to grace, not works, unless you do not actually accept the sovereignty of God. Then the verse is rewritten to say, Faith is according to works and not grace.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Thats a false gospel, it was only for Gods elect
1 John 2:2 says Jesus is the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity. 2 Peter 2:1 tells us Jesus bought even those heading for destruction.
Thus Christ died to provide the means of reconciliation for "all humanity," as He died as a ransom for all.
Every verse rewritten by Calvinism demonstrates they actually believe they are sovereign, and God just makes suggestions.
Here are their rewrites. No lost person ever seeks God. A natural (not born anew) person cannot understand any of the things of God. God did not choose individuals through faith in the truth. Many of the lost did not seek the narrow door. People entering the kingdom could not be prevented from going in because of irresistible grace. Faith is according to works.
I could go on and on...
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Flowers has an infuriating tendency to edit other people's videos and then claim they support his view when they don't. At the 4:30 mark is an example. Mac is not saying that people always had their own innate ability to come to Christ any time. He is saying that there is a time period where they are called and the Spirit is working and warning them lest they refuse.I give you John MacArthur to answer some of the question.John MacArthur Contradicts Calvinism | Dr. Leighton Flowers | Soteriology 101
Dr. Leighton Flowers plays two sermons by Dr. John MacArthur which seem to present a blatant contradiction. One argues for Calvinism's doctrine of total mora...
It is just as inconsistent for a Provisionist to pray that someone who has heard the gospel and not yet become a Christian - get saved. After all, they have been provided with everything necessary and it is now up to them. Any "interference" by the Holy Spirit smacks of Calvinism and is a manipulation of their free will.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You and @KenH are denying the word of God.
It seems both of you have fallen for the false teachings of Augustine and Calvin.
Intercession is not a Calvinist doctrine.
There is a balance between Hyper cal and Arminianism.
There are some things that I would view as hyper cal that most Calvinists would not. Because they go beyond what Scripture teaches and require different definitions taken from other books of the Bible, and out of context, I consider them hyper.
But if intercession is strictly a doctrine of Calvin in your definition, we can at least agree that we should be interceding.
In either case, what Mac says about it does appear to contradict himself. I don’t see how anything that you add to those statements fixes them up into everything else that he preaches.
For clarification, specifically the deterministic approaches of Calvinism is what I am referring to, and in relation to salvation.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
You are right I think. Most non-Catholic Christians I know believe that the Holy Spirit is either the driving force or at least essential in the sense of a calling or convicting and without it no one would come. And they also believe that people can reject this calling and ruin themselves by doing so. And most people believe that everyone who hears the gospel has at least "some light, some calling" as John R. Rice used to say.
He does. So does Calvin and Owen. I don't see how you can escape the idea that our free will, depraved as it is, is not involved somewhere in all this. If nothing more than that we can be so obstinate that God will eventually say that he judicially withdraws gracious influence and conviction and respects your wishes.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Dave compare what MacArthur said in the first then second video. That is what Flowers did. Are you suggesting that Flowers changed MacArthur's words?
MacArthur did say that man has the ability to come to to God
4:19 because they did not receive the love of
4:23 the truth the gospel truth concerning
4:25 Christ so as to be saved they did not
4:27 they would not they would not and
4:29 finally
4:30 as a judgment they could not
Up to the point where God judged them they could have trusted
Many people hear the gospel message and reject it. Some hear it and reject it but later will turn and trust in God.
What Flowers was pointing out is that under calvinist determinism God does have to, as you say, manipulate their "free will" as they can only believe if they are allowed to do so.