If God is Not Sovereign, Then There is No Grace

[DaveXR650]

Yes they recover themselves after they were given repentance. But the key is God caused it by giving them repentance.

Yes. The glory for your salvation, not only the merits, but even your desire to come to Christ I do believe are of God. But you do actually come to Christ and you do have to actually believe. It's possible to present this in a confusing way from both extremes.

 

[Brightfame52]

But you do actually come to Christ and you do have to actually believe.

God gives that.

 

[DaveXR650]

God gives that.

Forget the cause and effect and the circular logic for a moment. I believe people should be called upon to repent and believe the gospel when they hear it. And an appeal is made to their reasonable faculties and even the most strict Calvinist who limits his preaching to the benefits and attributes of Christ should accompany such preaching with an invitation knowing that scripture explicitly teaches that anyone who comes will not be cast out.

 

[Brightfame52]

Forget the cause and effect and the circular logic for a moment. I believe people should be called upon to repent and believe the gospel when they hear it. And an appeal is made to their reasonable faculties and even the most strict Calvinist who limits his preaching to the benefits and attributes of Christ should accompany such preaching with an invitation knowing that scripture explicitly teaches that anyone who comes will not be cast out.

God gives the conversion

 

[Charlie24]

God gives the conversion

God provides for the conversion. Just as He provided a sacrifice for Abraham (a ram caught in the brush) when God tested his faith in sacrificing his son (sounds familiar doesn't it).

The test was not for God, He knew what Abraham would do, as He knows what we will do.

Even for those who refuse to believe God and turn from the faith of Abraham, He is long-suffering with them, not willing that any should perish, but that all come to the knowledge of the truth.

God has provided everything we need to become righteous in His sight, the test is if we will believe Him as faithful Abraham did.

 

[KenH]

Do you not have
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

"Who will have all men to be saved,.... The salvation which God wills that all men should enjoy, is not a mere possibility of salvation, or a mere putting them into a salvable state; or an offer of salvation to them; or a proposal of sufficient means of it to all in his word; but a real, certain, and actual salvation, which he has determined they shall have; and is sure from his own appointment, from the provision of Christ as a Saviour for them, from the covenant of grace, in which everything is secured necessary for it, and from the mission of Christ to effect it, and from its being effected by him: wherefore the will of God, that all men should be saved, is not a conditional will, or what depends on the will of man, or on anything to be performed by him, for then none might be saved; and if any should, it would be of him that willeth, contrary to the express words of Scripture; but it is an absolute and unconditional will respecting their salvation, and which infallibly secures it: nor is it such a will as is distinguishable into antecedent and consequent; with the former of which it is said, God wills the salvation of all men, as they are his creatures, and the work of his hands; and with the latter he wills, or not wills it, according to their future conduct and behaviour; but the will of God concerning man's salvation is entirely one, invariable, unalterable, and unchangeable: nor is it merely his will of approbation or complacency, which expresses only what would be grateful and well pleasing, should it be, and which is not always fulfilled; but it is his ordaining, purposing, and determining will, which is never resisted, so as to be frustrated, but is always accomplished: the will of God, the sovereign and unfrustrable will of God, has the governing sway and influence in the salvation of men; it rises from it, and is according to it; and all who are saved God wills they should be saved; nor are any saved, but whom he wills they should be saved: hence by all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God; for there are some who were before ordained by him unto condemnation, and are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and it is his will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned; nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was his will they should; for who hath resisted his will? but there is a world of ungodly men that will be condemned, and who will go into everlasting punishment: rather therefore all sorts of men, agreeably to the use of the phrase in 1Tim 2:1 are here intended, kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; and therefore all are to be prayed for, even all sorts of men, because God will have all men, or all sorts of men, saved; and particularly the Gentiles may be designed, who are sometimes called the world, the whole world, and every creature; whom God would have saved, as well as the Jews, and therefore Heathens, and Heathen magistrates, were to be prayed for as well as Jewish ones."

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on 1 Timothy 2:4

 

[KenH]

If one does not believe then they will not be saved.

Obviously, all of those whom God chose before the world began, His elect, over the course of time, will believe in Christ Jesus as the Lord their Righteousness and will repent of their dead works.

The Covenant of Grace between God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit ensured that Christ, as the Surety for God's elect, would fulfill the law and pay their sin debt at the cross and be raised to life again, all during the course of time; and, also over the course of time, all of God's elect would be brought under the hearing of the gospel of Christ and be regenerated(given spiritual life) by God the Holy Spirit, and faith in the finished work of Christ and repentance from dead works would be fruits of that regeneration.

 

[JonC]

Calvinism redefines "sovereignty". Sovereignty is freedom ftom external controls and supreme power in terms of governance.

What Calvinists mean by "sovereignty" is "imposed authority". These are not the same thing.

 

[KenH]

But His death did not save anyone Ken

Therefore, under your teaching, Christ could come to earth as the God-man, fulfill the law, pay the sin debt of everyone who ever lives, and it would be quite possible, based on your teaching about "free will", that absolutely no one would be saved.

Doesn't sound like good news, Silverhair. Sound like you proclaim not only a false gospel, but a very dark and depressing one as well.

 

[KenH]

What Calvinists mean by "sovereignty" is "imposed will". These are not the same thing.

Sovereignty, according to the Bible is:

Isaiah 45:9
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Isaiah 64:8
But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Romans 9:14-24
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[Silverhair]

1 Jn 2:2 is about the elect unless you are an universalist.

BF you just continue to prove that you do not have the will to trust or understand the word of God.

The truth has been pointed out to you many times but you still cling to your false teachings.

 

[Silverhair]

"Who will have all men to be saved,.... The salvation which God wills that all men should enjoy, is not a mere possibility of salvation, or a mere putting them into a salvable state; or an offer of salvation to them; or a proposal of sufficient means of it to all in his word; but a real, certain, and actual salvation, which he has determined they shall have; and is sure from his own appointment, from the provision of Christ as a Saviour for them, from the covenant of grace, in which everything is secured necessary for it, and from the mission of Christ to effect it, and from its being effected by him: wherefore the will of God, that all men should be saved, is not a conditional will, or what depends on the will of man, or on anything to be performed by him, for then none might be saved; and if any should, it would be of him that willeth, contrary to the express words of Scripture; but it is an absolute and unconditional will respecting their salvation, and which infallibly secures it: nor is it such a will as is distinguishable into antecedent and consequent; with the former of which it is said, God wills the salvation of all men, as they are his creatures, and the work of his hands; and with the latter he wills, or not wills it, according to their future conduct and behaviour; but the will of God concerning man's salvation is entirely one, invariable, unalterable, and unchangeable: nor is it merely his will of approbation or complacency, which expresses only what would be grateful and well pleasing, should it be, and which is not always fulfilled; but it is his ordaining, purposing, and determining will, which is never resisted, so as to be frustrated, but is always accomplished: the will of God, the sovereign and unfrustrable will of God, has the governing sway and influence in the salvation of men; it rises from it, and is according to it; and all who are saved God wills they should be saved; nor are any saved, but whom he wills they should be saved: hence by all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God; for there are some who were before ordained by him unto condemnation, and are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and it is his will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned; nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was his will they should; for who hath resisted his will? but there is a world of ungodly men that will be condemned, and who will go into everlasting punishment: rather therefore all sorts of men, agreeably to the use of the phrase in 1Tim 2:1 are here intended, kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; and therefore all are to be prayed for, even all sorts of men, because God will have all men, or all sorts of men, saved; and particularly the Gentiles may be designed, who are sometimes called the world, the whole world, and every creature; whom God would have saved, as well as the Jews, and therefore Heathens, and Heathen magistrates, were to be prayed for as well as Jewish ones."

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on 1 Timothy 2:4

So this is where you get all your false teachings.

 

[Silverhair]

Therefore, under your teaching, Christ could come to earth as the God-man, fulfill the law, pay the sin debt of everyone who ever lives, and it would be quite possible, based on your teaching about "free will", that absolutely no one would be saved.

Doesn't sound like good news, Silverhair. Sound like you proclaim not only a false gospel, but a very dark and depressing one as well.

Christ made salvation possible Ken. God does not force anyone to believe in Him, that is just a false calvinist teaching.

God is still sovereign and holy and glorious even if no one trusted in Him Ken.

The fact that He was willing to be the atoning sacrifice for sinful man just shows the love He has for His creation. His desire is for all to come to Him in faith but it has to be their choice.

You have fallen for the false pagan philosophy that augustine brought into the church. Have you even taken the time to investigate the foundations of your religion? I doubt you have.

 

[Silverhair]

Obviously, all of those whom God chose before the world began, His elect, over the course of time, will believe in Christ Jesus as the Lord their Righteousness and will repent of their dead works.

The Covenant of Grace between God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit ensured that Christ, as the Surety for God's elect, would fulfill the law and pay their sin debt at the cross and be raised to life again, all during the course of time; and, also over the course of time, all of God's elect would be brought under the hearing of the gospel of Christ and be regenerated(given spiritual life) by God the Holy Spirit, and faith in the finished work of Christ and repentance from dead works would be fruits of that regeneration.

Ken you are just reading your false religion into the text.

 

[KenH]

God does not force anyone to believe in Him

That is correct, He makes them willing.

Psalm 110:3
Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power.

Have you even taken the time to investigate the foundations of your religion?

Yes, I have read the entire Bible.

 

[Silverhair]

That is correct, He makes them willing.

Psalm 110:3
Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power.



Yes, I have read the entire Bible.

Well your use of Psa 110:3 shows that you have a faulty understanding of the biblical text.

Psa 110 in pointing to the end times which you would know if you had got past your false religion.

So while you may hvae read the bible it is clear that you do not know the bible.

Also the foundations of your religion is found in the writings of augustine from the 4th century. Now that you know that you can do some more research and find out where augustines views came from.

 

[Brightfame52]

God provides for the conversion

No God gives the conversion in giving repentance

 

[Van]

Prove It's Christ blood in 2 Peter 2:1

Yet another attempt to deny the very words of God. Here Calvinism ignorantly claims the Master is not Christ.

Christ purchased with His own blood the means of reconciliation of the lost. 1 John 2:2.

Christ blood redeems from destruction Ps 103:4

Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;

He redeemed from a false religious life that leads to destruction 1 Peter 1:18-19

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

The word conversation is the Greek word anastrophē:

manner of life, conduct, behaviour, deportment

So your interpretation not biblical and dishonors the saving effects of the redemptive blood of Christ

More gibberish, more denial of the obvious.

Folks, the issue is Christ purchased and ransomed the whole of humanity. ! John 2:2, 2 Peter 2:1.

All they have are efforts at diversion, they rewrite ransomed to read redeemed. They do not even address the issue.

 

[JonC]

Sovereignty, according to the Bible is:

Isaiah 45:9
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Isaiah 64:8
But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Romans 9:14-24
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Yes. Man plans his way but God controls the outcome.

The problem is Calvinism carries this to an unbiblical extreme (not all Calvinists, but many on this board).

Spurgeon, for example, described how God saves individuals is by persuasion. He reveals Himself (like the example you offered...God hardened Pharaoh's heart against His revelation).

 

[Brightfame52]

Yet another attempt to deny the very words of God. Here Calvinism ignorantly claims the Master is not Christ.

Christ purchased with His own blood the means of reconciliation of the lost. 1 John 2:2.

More gibberish, more denial of the obvious.

Folks, the issue is Christ purchased and ransomed the whole of humanity. ! John 2:2, 2 Peter 2:1.

All they have are efforts at diversion, they rewrite ransomed to read redeemed. They do not even address the issue.

Well you have not proved it, since earlier Peter specifically wrote they were redeemed by the precious blood of Christ 1 Peter 1:18-19

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Now Peter used a different Greek word for redeemed in his first epistle, the word lytroō

to release on receipt of ransom

to redeem, liberate by payment of ransom

to liberate

to cause to be released to one's self by payment of a ransom

to redeem

to deliver: from evils of every kind, internal and external

They were redeemed from false vain religion. So he wouldn't contradict himself. You have a problem