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To answer the question "when are we saved" you must first ask "from what?". Many today believe that Jesus died to save us from Hell, but that's not entirely true. Jesus actually died to save us from SIN. I was saved from the eternal penalty of sin when God chose me in Christ before the...

I reject the notion of total natural inability. I believe that man's natural ability to come to Christ is still intact, and that his inability is only moral. This quote explains it pretty well: "The impotence of the sinner does not excuse him in sinning, since it is not involuntary and merely...

I do believe in total depravity. But, with a distinction between what some call "natural inability and moral inability". I believe that the only reason that unregenerate men "cannot" come to Christ is that they "will not" come to Christ. Yet, despite this willful rejection of God by all of...

I believe that all men have the ability to come to Christ, but that all men choose not to. John 3:19-20 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light...

I'm not sure that it's accurate to say that Calvinists deny libertarian free will because they believe it is logically impossible for God to foresee a libertarian decision. They deny libertarian free will because of total depravity. Personally, I believe that God foresaw that all men would...

If that is what he believes, he has the order right! 1. Created in Christ / Born of God / Creation of the "new man" (which is what makes us "the elect" or "the called") 2. Response to God's call / putting on the "new man" 3. Salvation Of his own will begat he us (1) with the word of truth...

One of your mistakes here is that you are equating "salvation" (2Th 2:13) with being created in Christ.

1. We become "the elect" in time, when God actually creates us in Christ. 2. Ephesians 1:4 says that God elected us in Christ before the foundation of the world. (i.e. predestinated us before the foundation of the world to be created in Christ and become "the elect" in time). 3. Being...

I agree with you on this, I've never been comfortable with verses being strained to fit a theology, like a puzzle piece being wedged into a spot where it doesn't fit. Much like the typical Calvinist reading of John 3:16, where "God so loved the world (of the elect)". I also believe that it's...

You asked me to "show from the text itself that there's an order there", to which I used only the text itself to present "a good counter-argument". There is far more support for this order in addition to what can be found in the text itself though. For example: 1. Foreknown (which we all...

What you fail to acknowledge, and what none of the verses that you use as examples duplicate, is Paul's repetition of the last of each pair to begin the next pair. This seems to me to clearly indicate that he is giving a specific order, and not merely enumerating. Paul's ordo salutus in Romans...

I understand what you're saying. You read it more as "God hath from the beginning chosen y̶o̶u̶ ̶t̶o̶ salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth (for you)"

The "outward call" is just the call of the gospel, as preached by men, for men to do something (repent). However, God's call is distinguished from the outward call here: 1 Corinthians 1:23-24 But we preach Christ crucified (the outward call), unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks...

Since no specific beginning is ascribed in the context, the clearest reference would be to "the beginning". As in "in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". Regardless though, the verse shows that we were chosen to salvation before we were called to it by the gospel.

My emphasis was that God called us to the salvation that He had already chosen us to, that the outward gospel call is foolishness to anyone who hasn't been called by God, and that God's criteria for calling a person has nothing to do with any good He saw in them (whether "foreknown" before the...

The verse that I quoted about being chosen to salvation stated that they were chosen for this from the beginning. That wasn't even the emphasis of my post though.

Did you even read my post?

@Barry Johnson We were predestinated for the adoption before we were called by God "whom he did predestinate, them he also called". I also believe that there is an "outward call" of the gospel. A call for all men everywhere to repent. The Bible is clear that "many are called, but few are...

Regarding the second view that you present, the verse is clear that "whom he called, them he also justified". The notion that all are called and only those who respond will be justified goes against the text. Of the three views, the first that you mentioned seems to be the only free will view...

Believe me, I understand as well as any that when my brothers and sisters stand up in our church and make such statements that it is never their intent to take credit from God. However, that is what their statements, and the beliefs behind them, ultimately boil down to.