When are we SAVED?

[AustinC]

No you have to rely on deductive reasoning and Syllogism. Calvinism starts with philosophical questions and finds verses to support it . Once a person starts to view scriptures this way ,there is little chance he can see the bible any other way .

I use inductive Bible study. Observe, question, interpret, and apply. Observation takes work, Barry.
John Calvin never started with a philosophy. He started by observing, questioning, interpreting and then applying. That's inductive Bible study, Barry.
Honestly, the more you write, the more it seems you have no clue about John Calvin.

 

[AustinC]

That's where I disagree after much study.

What I see, is that not only does salvation take place in eternity past, but God does not save on the basis of faith...
He saves on the basis of election,
granting the new birth to us as sinful men and we then believe on Him by faith.

Faith is not the basis, but rather the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of salvation and His work in us by the Spirit.
It is yet another gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ) given to His elect by the Lord, which they then use to do many things.

Agreed. Faith is an effect of God's gracious salvation, it is not the basis (cause) of God's gracious salvation.

 

[MB]

I use inductive Bible study. Observe, question, interpret, and apply. Observation takes work, Barry.
John Calvin never started with a philosophy. He started by observing, questioning, interpreting and then applying. That's inductive Bible study, Barry.
Honestly, the more you write, the more it seems you have no clue about John Calvin.

John was a Catholic and wanted to be Pope. He still has the worst reputations of any minister. He did not invent Calvinism. Augustine did that. John Calvin just claim Agustin-ism for his own. Then forced people into submission. In His day you could be killed for not believing in Calvinism.
Yeah he was a nice guy. Bet your proud of Him.
MB

 

[AustinC]

John was a Catholic and wanted to be Pope. He still has the worst reputations of any minister. He did not invent Calvinism. Augustine did that. John Calvin just claim Agustin-ism for his own. Then forced people into submission. In His day you could be killed for not believing in Calvinism.
Yeah he was a nice guy. Bet your proud of Him.
MB

What does that have to do with inductive Bible study.
All I got out of your post is that you are significantly prejudiced.

 

[Van]

Syllogism at its finest.

A taint so post using false assertion.

 

[Van]

Romans 4:23-24 Says nothing about being elect. 2Thess 2"13 . You fali to understand the difference between and being elect and chosen. The elect are always Jews always have been Jews and you have nothing that proves differently. Of course our Lord does choose us after we have believed.
MB

1. Don't you just love it when someone indicates they are mind readers?

2. To be chosen is to be elected. No difference.

3. Those elected for a specific purpose can be called "elect" but to assume folks cannot be chosen for another purpose is nonsense.

4. I have shown your absurd claim is false many times. Every born anew believer was chosen for salvation, and therefore can be called "elect." Your made up definitions are nonsense.

5. Romans 4:23-24 does say God credits the faith of believers in Christ as righteousness.

6. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does say God chooses for salvation through or on the basis of faith in the truth.

To deny those chosen as rich in faith have a faith that has not been credited by God as righteousness is to make scripture to no effect.

 

[MB]

1. Don't you just love it when someone indicates they are mind readers?

2. To be chosen is to be elected. No difference.

Yeah that's what Calvinist claim. Oh I keep forgetting you have just about the same doctrine. Election is what happened to the Jews. Being chosen for Salvation is what happened to the Gentiles and we were chosen because His own "The Jews" did not receive Him.

3. Those elected for a specific purpose can be called "elect" but to assume folks cannot be chosen for another purpose is nonsense.

I didn't say that you did

4. I have shown your absurd claim is false many times. Every born anew believer was chosen for salvation, and therefore can be called "elect." Your made up definitions are nonsense.

Don't let your boasting bite in the back side because you have never proven me wrong. Except in that tiny little brain of your's.

5. Romans 4:23-24 does say God credits the faith of believers in Christ as righteousness.

6. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does say God chooses for salvation through or on the basis of faith in the truth.

To deny those chosen as rich in faith have a faith that has not been credited by God as righteousness is to make scripture to no effect.

I have no disagreement with 5 or 6 or the last paragraph.
MB

 

[atpollard]

Isn't it clear from scripture what the answers are?

Your earlier post that I quoted offered no scripture, just an ambiguous answer and a claim that even a child could understand. So I simply asked for you to explain your nebulous non-answer.

Now when we were baptized into Christ by One Spirit, that is when we were put into Christ and saved.

Your follow up post is full of a long list of things that are NOT when you are saved, and only another vague non-answer about when you are saved. If you don’t want to answer, then don’t answer.

Just don’t kid yourself that a circular answer really answers the question ...

When are you saved?
When you are placed in Jesus.

So, when are you placed in Jesus?
When you are saved.

So now that you have clarified when we are NOT SAVED ... “when [ARE] we were baptized into Christ by One Spirit”?

 

[Twiceborn]

To answer the question "when are we saved" you must first ask "from what?". Many today believe that Jesus died to save us from Hell, but that's not entirely true. Jesus actually died to save us from SIN. I was saved from the eternal penalty of sin when God chose me in Christ before the foundation of the world. I was saved from sin spiritually when God regenerated me as a "new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness". (That part of me "cannot sin" - 1 John 3:9). I was, and continue to be, saved from sin experientially through faith and repentance. (The "putting on" of the "new man" God created in me). But, it will be through glorification that I will finally be saved from sin completely, in every sense.

 

[atpollard]

Forced to believe in God is ridiculous. Rom 12:3 doesn't say that at all.
MB

Yes, “forced” to believe is a bit silly, but “enabled to believe”, just as a man born blind was enabled to see by Jesus healing his eyes, is reality. Romans 12:3 does say that ... “through the grace given to me”.
ATPollard

 

[AustinC]

Yes, “forced” to believe is a bit silly, but “enabled to believe”, just as a man born blind was enabled to see by Jesus healing his eyes, is reality. Romans 12:3 does say that ... “through the grace given to me”.
ATPollard

"Jesus Christ’s earthly ministry was one of giving back to undeserving sinners their humanity. We tend to think of the miracles of the Gospels as interruptions in the natural order. Yet German theologian Jürgen Moltmann points out that miracles are not an interruption of the natural order but the restoration of the natural order. We are so used to a fallen world that sickness, disease, pain, and death seem natural. In fact, they are the interruption."
~ Dane Ortlund (from the book, "Gentle and Lowly.")

 

[Barry Johnson]

We preach to all, telling them to believe and repent as stated in scripture. We know that those whom the Father has given will believe, as stated in the scripture.

Where do you disagree with the above truth?

We should preach to all that Jesus has died for their sins . Calvinism teaches contrary to this . You cannot tell all sinners that Jesus has died for them . You can't sincerely tell a single person that Jesus has died for them . You can't really know if Jesus has died for you . You don't have a verse .

 

[Barry Johnson]

I use inductive Bible study. Observe, question, interpret, and apply. Observation takes work, Barry.
John Calvin never started with a philosophy. He started by observing, questioning, interpreting and then applying. That's inductive Bible study, Barry.
Honestly, the more you write, the more it seems you have no clue about John Calvin.

We know Calvin refined Augustines teachings. Calvin was influenced by Augustine. Case closed .

 

[atpollard]

We know Calvin refined Augustines teachings. Calvin was influenced by Augustine. Case closed .

So Luther and Huss and Zwingli had no influence on the thinking of John Calvin? Only Augustine?

You should really stick to stating YOUR beliefs and leave others to state their own beliefs. You are not very good at explaining Calvinism and appear ignorant of the history of the Reformation. This would not be an issue except you keep pontificating on the origins and beliefs of Reformed Theology and you are historically inaccurate.

Hint: Calvinism was not founded by John Calvin. It was the powerful Lutheran Church that believed these new reformers had gone too far that gave the name “Calvinism” to the Reformation sweeping Europe as an insult (just as you use the term) to imply that they were following a man rather than the Bible. The irony in that is that it was the Catholic Church that named the earlier efforts to reclaim the teachings of scripture Lutheranism as an identical insult making exactly the same claim. Luther was not alone in reforming Catholicism and founding the “Lutheran Church” either.

 

[canadyjd]

That's where I disagree after much study.

What I see, is that not only does salvation take place in eternity past, but God does not save on the basis of faith...
He saves on the basis of election,
granting the new birth to us as sinful men and we then believe on Him by faith.

Faith is not the basis, but rather the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of salvation and His work in us by the Spirit.
It is yet another gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ) given to His elect by the Lord, which they then use to do many things.

Scripture tells us that God was well pleased, through the foolishness of the message preached, to save those who believe.

Clearly we are told salvation is appropriated by faith. How is that not contrary to your stated belief?

peace to you

 

[atpollard]

miracles are not an interruption of the natural order but the restoration of the natural order. We are so used to a fallen world that sickness, disease, pain, and death seem natural. In fact, they are the interruption.

That is a GREAT quote and an amazing way to view the world.
Thank you.

 

[atpollard]

@Dave G
@canadyjd

Just a quick note that I have been enjoying your exchange. A polite difference of opinion with well thought out responses and honest “communication” has been refreshing.
Thank you both.

 

[Van]

Your earlier post [post #57?]that I quoted offered no scripture, just an ambiguous answer and a claim that even a child could understand. So I simply asked for you to explain your nebulous non-answer.

Your follow up post [post #58?] is full of a long list of things that are NOT when you are saved, and only another vague non-answer about when you are saved. If you don’t want to answer, then don’t answer.
SNIP
. “when [ARE] we were baptized into Christ by One Spirit”?

I addressed your list Sir. My first post reflected Ephesians 2:8 so to say it offered no scripture is disingenuous.

When are we baptized into Christ by One Spirit?
When we are given to Christ? Yes
When we are chosen through sanctification by the Spirit? Yes
When we are chosen through sanctification by the Spirit on the basis of faith in the truth? Yes

In summary
Not in Christ, not saved
In Christ, saved

Now when is our individual election for salvation?
Before the foundation of the world? Nope - that refers to our corporate election.
When chooses to set us apart in Christ, during our lifetime, after God chooses to credit our faith as righteousness? Yes

 

[AustinC]

We should preach to all that Jesus has died for their sins . Calvinism teaches contrary to this . You cannot tell all sinners that Jesus has died for them . You can't sincerely tell a single person that Jesus has died for them . You can't really know if Jesus has died for you . You don't have a verse .

I disagree with your first sentence.
We should preach reconciliation, just as God commands us.
Believe in Christ as your Redeemer and repent of your sins.
Those whom God has given to Jesus will believe (John 6, John 10, John 17).
I would not tell an unbeliever that their sins are already atoned for. That would be a lie. I would tell them to be reconciled with God, to believe and repent. When they did, I would share how Jesus atonement removed the penalty of their sins and provided redemption to them.

I can know Jesus died for me because I no longer live in rebellion and opposition to God. I have been tried and refined in the fire. God has sustained me in the storm and tossed me upon the Rock of Ages. For you to claim some nebulous incapacity to know God has redeemed me is for you to speak like Job's friends in ignorance.
Barry, you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[AustinC]

We know Calvin refined Augustines teachings. Calvin was influenced by Augustine. Case closed .

You ignored everything about inductive Bible study. Both Augustine and Calvin and many many saints have used inductive Bible study to observe what God says. The case is not closed, but your mind may be closed at this present time.