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By the way, he has smacked his sister before giving her the animal and since giving her the animal. Point being that people can have faith and be a sinner at the same time. You set up a false dichotomy in your last argument by suggesting that God either saved them despite their being sinful OR...

So, by that application of this analogy we are saved "by Grace through sin?" You aren't following the line of reasoning Amy. We both agree that we are saved "by Grace through faith," and I'm simply showing how faith is not deserving of grace, which is something with which we all agree.

No, you'd be engaging in an actual discussion of ideas which might stretch you to think about another perspective and either change your views or become better at defending them. But, to each his/her own... Then don't do it. It is the lowest form of debate and should be avoided when possible...

That is my point. We are NOT saved 'because of faith.' We are saved because of a gracious God who loved people enough to credit righteousness to the account of those who believe. Faith merits or causes nothing. We are saved by Grace. Faith is merely the means through which salvation is applied.

Right, but what he did didn't merit what I gave him, just as our faith does please God but doesn't merit what we get. As Winman points out, faith pleases God. But faith doesn't merit salvation. Salvation is purely gracious. True. Just as I chose to give my son the iPod even though he...

Aaron, The mistake you and many others make is presuming that men's faith is meritorious. It's not. It's a filthy rag. It is surrender. It is giving up and letting go. It is falling on your face and abandoning yourself. It is dying to self. Nothing about it is seen as worthy of merit by...

Sure it does. The command most certainly implies ability. And the mistake you make is to presume that the example of God's demand for Holiness proves your point, but that in itself begs the question because it presumes the means by which men attain holiness isn't actually attainable. Just...

I believe it is 'shallow thinking' to assume the only way for an all powerful Eternal Being to maintain complete sovereignty over his creation is to control everything they choose to do. I believe God is powerful enough to work all things out for his Glory and to accomplish his plan despite...

We all lose when we resort to these kind of discussions... Closed for infractions...

:thumbsup: Great point!!!

We are praying for God to intervene in order to 'provoke their wills' as Paul speaks of in Romans 11:14. We believe God must work on man's hearts, we just don't make the mistake of assuming that work is irresistible, thus causing all these dilemmas. Right, but in our system, His will is that...

Riiiight, because God sending his Son to die and be resurrected, the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin, inspiring the writing of the gospel in scripture through divinely appointed apostles, carrying that gospel by Holy Spirit indwelled messengers, establishing his Bride (the Church), to...

Wrong again. Man, do you ever get tired of being so inaccurate? Put a little effort into understanding your opponent and you won't continue to have this problem, Aaron. Yes, knowledge of the gospel is necessary, just as knowledge of how to work a iphone is necessary. And the...

One more mistake on your post that I failed to mention.... "And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who...

I agree.........faith is the means through which Grace is applied. "By Grace through faith..." = possible "By Law through Works" = impossible Calvinists mistakenly take verses which prove the latter to disprove the former.

What specifically do you disagree with and why? That would be the correct manner in which to engage in a productive and meaningful debate/discussion. :wavey:

You can't paraphrase well, so please stop trying. God didn't lower the standard, He sent Christ to fulfill it. That is gospel 101 and I think you know it. You just hear what you want to hear and resort to straw man attacks. Typical.

How does a Calvinist answer this argument? If you were to pray for a lost person who ends up dying in unbelief (a non-elect reprobate in your system), aren't you praying against the will of God? Aren't you praying for God's glory to be lessoned when you pray for them?

I don't know what he was talking about either. He also didn't show where my comments would only apply to Hyper-Calvinists either, so his whole post didn't make much sense.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: