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steaver, So now that we have clearly identified our central point of disagreement, let's attempt to proceed with this in mind. I will take some time away this evening and get back with you with a few thoughts for your consideration. Maybe you could do the same thing and we will be able to...

steaver, The use of incense among religious peoples is practically universal and certainly culturally and doctrinally multivalent. Do you really want to open that "can of worms"? If you do, maybe you should start another thread... In Him, Herbert

steaver, Just because I don't reach your conclusions doesn't mean that I've "not studied out what it means to be born again." A Mormon or Jehovah's Witness could say the same thing to a friend who's considering leaving the fellowship... Your appeal sounds good. But you're actually appealing...

You said you can't find a bishop "waving" around a "smoking pot" in the Bible. I was just pointing out that the Bible does present such a thing. And why priests do what they do at Mass is certainly analagous to what the elders are doing in Revelation 5. In Him, Herbert

steaver, This is another example of the type of comment which only holds if indeed you have a completely accurate conception of what the "Gospel of Jesus Christ" entails. In other words, your using your standards for what constitutes the Gospel as the measure by which you conclude that the...

steaver, So many remarks here bring us back to what I have come to see as the most fundamental point deserving consideration. I so often see comments such as your "Can't find that in the bible anywhere." Well, what exactly is that supposed to prove? Neither have I found a verse in the Bible...

steaver, I don't see it this way at all. I have been with my wife for 24 years. Do I know I love her? Yes. Do I know she loves me? Yes. Do we have a loving, committed relationship right now? Yes. What might happen in ten years, though? Could I drift away from her? Could I become completely...

I don't know, steaver, I just feel confused. Again, I feel that the fact that a Catholic understanding of salvation doesn't square nicely with your paradigm is what's at the root of this whole problem.. So let's just say, for the sake of your argument that Adonia and utilyan are way off (I don't...

steaver, I see how you have come to see your "paradigm" as valid (and how you have come to see other competing paradigms as invalid). But I no longer buy it. I no longer accept the tradition which you've come to accept. It was indeed the tradition into which I was born (though I didn't see it as...

For the record, I will not be responding to you, ever. And it's not because I am "stumped." Oops. This is the verse I should have pasted: "...and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."

steaver, I will get to your other comments as soon as possible. But I'd like to point something out here that I think lies at the heart of this problem. As I see it, you understand salvation according to a particular paradigm. Catholics have their own paradigm. It seems as though a Catholic...

steaver, Catholics are "in conflict" because we are all living through a process of formation, a crucible of emotional, intellectual, developmental, and doctrinal clarification. We, however, are called to be obedient to the Church. This obedience in faith allows for the supernatural unity which...

I'll see you over there!

Okay, that makes sense. I get your point. Thanks. Well, about St. Paul... Since this thread is about to close, maybe this topic deserves a new thread. If you start one, we can take the time to discuss these passages of Scripture. God Bless you, steaver. In Him, Herbert

Adonia, Thanks for the response, it allows me to clarify my point (hopefully!). I DO believe that the Holy Spirit is "with those men" when they elect a pope, always. But allow me to appeal to Pope Emeritus, Benedict XVI to clarify my point. When asked whether or not the Holy Spirit selects a...

John Yurich, Hello and greetings to you. I just want to chime in here to say that I am glad that you are a lover of God and I don't wish my words to come across the wrong way. But I would like to challenge you a bit here. Having read your comments, it seems to me that your position is quite...

Adonia, I always appreciate your comments. I want to say, however, that it is my impression that the Church does not teach that the appointment of a particular pope at a given point in time should be construed as God's divine sanction or approval of the man. Consider Pope John Paul the 1st. He...

If anyone wishes to pick up where "MennoSota" left off, allow me to frame this disagreement in terms which might help to bring about a fruitful dialogue: When someone dismisses Christian doctrines on the grounds that they are not spelled out in Scripture or I might say when the test by which...

steaver, What do you mean by "even you Herbert cannot accept the Word of Paul/God"? I thought that I, as a Catholic, was already considered, in your mind, to have deserted the Word of God for "Rome's Doctrines." Also, I did little more than quote Scripture. The main point of my writing to...

"MennoSota," I don't know what sort of standards people are held to here on this site. I am, however, going to report you to the site directors, etc. Calling me Herbie or Herberto is, again, not kind or respectful. This, despite the fact that the Scriptures call Christians to treat all people...