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I agree, I was just speaking in generalities. Just as there a many different 'types' of Calvinists there are many different types of Arminians...many of which hate the labels all together.

Question beg much? :rolleyes: You think Paul answers my question, but in reality Paul is answering a MUCH different question. He is answering the question about why God's Chosen ones (Israel) are being hardened in their rebellion while the unclean Gentiles (who weren't chosen by God) are...

Either you believe God has preselected a certain number of people to irresistibly save to the neglect of all the rest who He chose to punish with a Totally depraved nature from birth due to Adam's sin, or you don't.

I guess they are responsible to worship in the same way the stone are responsible to cry out, right? The only difference is that the stones won't feel the pain of burning for all eternity? Is that right? If not, how is it different specifically? And why don't they WANT to? Why CAN'T they...

Can you quote specifics from the article? I'm not denying it may exist, but I like dealing with actual quotes in context as it is a common practice around here to pluck things out of context and misapply them. What issue specifically? I affirm the doctrine of hell and the wrath of God. I'm...

If Calvinism is true, can your really blame the non-elect reprobate for their being rebellious against God? After all look at the facts of the matter: 1. God punished them for the sin of Adam by making them be born totally unable to repent even when invited by God to do so. 2. God...

We both agree on this point. That is NOT the point we are debating. We are speaking of the depraved nature of man as defined by the two respective views (Calvinism and Arminianism). We both believe even one sin is hell worthy, but we have different view on the nature of man from birth...

Well if Lydia is meant to be the representative of the average "totally depraved" individual, which Calvinists describe as being 'enemies, God-haters, totally unable, etc' then can you explain why she is described as someone who 'worshipped God' prior to this experience?

I agree, which is why I've rejected the reformed view of TD (and been accused of being Peligian for it.) But what MOST non-Cals mean when they say they affirm TD is that they affirm the doctrine of Original Sin. Or some say they affirm TD even to the point of total inability but claim God...

So, you are saying that every sin if of equal consequence but that consistent Arminians do have a high view of man??? How does that relate to the argument I've laid out above?

Humblethinker, The short answer is I have absolutely no idea. Like I said, this is a mystery to finite being and I'm not sure our minds can even begin to grasp timelessness. I'm not sure we were created with the ability to fully comprehend that dimension...at least I wasn't with my limited...

I'm not a Molinist, so don't take this as a defense of that view, BUT I'm not sure how you think Calvinism wouldn't afford these same negatives... Same would be true of the universe actualized by the Calvinistic worldview, right? The non-elect in the Calvinistic universe are ' not given the...

The method of one's interpretation DOES NOT define how 'seriously' they feel about the scriptures. Did Jesus not take scriptures very seriously when he didn't follow the prescribed method of punishment for the adulterous woman? He was sinless, so why didn't he stone her? I guess Jesus just...

humblethinker, I completely get where you are coming from and I agree with many of your logical proofs. HOWEVER, the issue I have with this line of reasoning is that it places God on a linear time line: <-------------God foreseeing-----------------------Action foreseen------> But God isn't...

I really really don't want to set myself up as the defender of another brother, especially one with whom I'm not that familiar, but from what I've read thus far I believe this is an unfair characterization. You do know that those of the NT times who had what you call a 'high view of scripture'...

:thumbs: Good advice. It's just that here in a theological debate forum we seem to be more tilted toward the doctrine and less so with the passion.

By the way, I just read back over that and I should note that 'it takes one to know one,' in that I tend to be more 'theological' and less emotional and loving, so that Tozer quote is more a reminder to me than any kind of a criticism of another. Sorry, if that wasn't clear. I can't judge your...

Spoken like a man who has had much experience with theological concepts and very little with "enraptured hearts." The scribes of Jesus day were the theologians who knew their scriptures backward and forward, but what did they lack? Knowing God. An enraptured heart. A first love. That is...

God's of course, but that argument is a false dichotomy because it assumes it MUST be either or, when in reality what we are debating is man's judgement about what God has revealed. Is of importance to Christ who gives an analogy of that very principle, so I guess you should take it up with...

That doesn't keep you from saying it about my view, and since we agree as to God initial gracious work to make those who believe 'better' then whatever applies to my view would by necessity apply to yours. Just because I don't believe the gracious work of God irresistibly draws a positive...