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I don't believe anyone here (especially Roger Olsen) is arguing that the God of the OT is different from the God of the NT, but someone would have to be blind or lack all objectivity to deny there is a CLEAR difference in the revelation about God in the two accounts. So, if the God is the same...

In the 'real' world you'd be sure to call the sane man who committed premeditated murder worse than the clinically insane man who was born with a chemical imbalance and unable to control himself. A jury would say 'guilty' about one of the them and 'not guilty by reason of insanity' about the...

And that is question begging because you are presuming mercy shown equals mercy irresistibly applied, which is a point up for debate. The same All who are bound are the same all shown mercy. I know that is what you said, and like your argument above, it begs the question by presuming that our...

The parenthetical word "ultimately" includes all the so-called 'secondary causes' of which God is said to use to bring about all that he has ordained, yes even the morally evil choices of mankind. In your system, it may appear the reprobate is 'freely' choosing to reject the gospel but the REAL...

I wouldn't word it that way, but I think I know what he means, which is why I asked you to reconcile such things as the law which calls for stoning of adulterers and Jesus' treatment of the harlot caught in adultery? Would you accuse Jesus of the same thing you accused Roger Olsen for since he...

Icon, You and I have had enough discussions for you to know that one of the main reasons I have rejected Calvinism is because they can't seem to understand the difference between Law and Grace. Case and point: You think that biblical proof that men cannot attain righteousness by law is proof...

Icon, I know Roger and that is not what he is saying. You are reading him through your own lenses and not doing so with any kind of objectivity. I don't agree with all his views, but he is not saying what you accuse him of saying. The OT says to stone adulterers and Jesus said, "Ye without...

Which would make sense if you believed in contra-causal free will, but since you don't you have a God making all the decisions (ultimately) and thus seemingly contradicting himself over and over. True. He chose to give it first to the Jew and then the Gentile (Rm 1:16; 11:32). They...

Ok guys, we all know one of you thinks the Calvinistic doctrine represents the 'biblical God' and the other thinks the non-calvinisitic doctrine represents the 'biblical God.' That is just question begging to keep pointing it out and is the lowest form of debate. It serves only to inflame and...

I didn't read through the whole thread, just opened it and saw your last post. If you didn't report Icons post then it probably won't get read by a moderator. I didn't give you an infraction or anything serious, just a reminder. Remember what our mothers use to tell us, "Two wrongs don't make...

I don't disagree with that statement because I actually believe God is more merciful than Paul because God also wants the hardened Jews to come to repentance. I just believe those who believe Paul is expressing a desire not shared by the God who is inspiring him to write are mistaken. :)

True. And the Life-giving Word of God always precedes life (i.e. the gospel). If someone chooses to trade the truth of that gospel in for lies and remain in their lost condition that is their own fault, they have no excuse (i.e. "God didn't grant me faith, etc").

I agree, so why are you still a Calvinist if you agree? :)

Even if He had, according to our view, God still longed to 'gather him under his wings' and still 'held out his hands to him' and 'desired him to repent and be saved.' Giving someone over to their reprobate mind is not necessarily a death sentence. The Jews were 'given over' or 'cut off' but...

He was writing under the inspiration of the HS, so we must all presume he was not lying, and he expressed his overwhelming desire to see the hardened Jews come to faith, so much so that he wished himself accursed for their sakes. Now, either he was lying or he really did want them to be saved...

Webdog, I asked virtually the same question in regard to Paul's words at the beginning of Romans 9 where he wishes himself accursed for the sake of the hardened Jews, his fellow countrymen who are persecuting the church. Was Paul, writing under inspiration, more merciful than the God who was...

What's "nature" to a theist, Aaron? Do you believe in Mother Nature or something, because you talk like it sometimes. :smilewinkgrin: When you say, "You think they are better by NATURE." What you are really saying is, "You think they are better by God's doing." Because NATURE is God's Doing...

Michael, It is not permitted to question one's salvation (or the 'god' they worship), or to call them a "liar" or accuse them of "lying" in the public forum, as that is unnecessarily inflammatory. Handle such things through PM if necessary or report posts of those who you believe need to be...

I bet the Pharisees called Jesus a liberal.

I admit that I haven't read through all the posts so forgive me if I'm repeating something already mentioned: But I'd like to know what some of you "fundamentalist" types think of the NT passages which clearly 'correct' or 'give a more full perspective' of the OT ways of thinking? Examples...