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Kind of like when you felt the need to tell us God doesn't beget children like we do? But, the difference here is that WE do consider motive and you implied we don't. Agreed. What does that have to do with establishing any view except the Calvinistic one is 'carnal?' Where did I say that men's...

Thank you 12strings! Good response. All of our terms are human.:tongue3: God gave us logic, reason, and intellect to be used, and skills that can be learned and developed Thus, I could have 'spiritualized' my response a bit more to give God all the credit for the skills I was taught etc, but...

Again, the strongest points of one's argument are not typically reflected in the portion that his opponents address, but in the portions ignored. Aaron, you're intentionally avoiding the point of an analogy to focus on another unrealted point. We all know God didn't beget children in the...

Honestly, if I hadn't been a debater in high school and college I think I would still be a Calvinists today. In logic/debate courses you are taught to study and defend both sides of a debate, which is not natural. If you don't believe me, try defending abortion or some other very convicting...

Yes, I liked this OP...

You say that as if they are mutually exclusive. As I quoted before, Jesus said, "The words that I speak to you are spirit and life." When you say, "...it is not the word that saves," you are in error. It is not either/or, but both/and. Understand? I agree, thus God, by his word, saves. It...

Question begging. It would only be 'watered down' IF Calvinism's premise is true, which is the point up for debate. Read the account of the Fall again and tell me where it says that all men after Adam would be born unable to respond to God appeal to be reconciled. I look forward to that...

Motive is considered in both cases, it is just more fully laid bare in the sight of an all knowing God. You prove this in your next statement, when you write... You judged my heart...my motive (wrongly, but nevertheless). To judge ones motives we look at their actions and how they typically...

The citation need not be addressed if the statement being reference is irrelevant to the case. No. You are confusing the matter. Look at it this way: X = God is culpable for predetermining sinful acts Y = God is culpable for foreknowing and permitting sinful acts You are arguing if X is...

The strongest points of one's argument are not typically reflected in the portion that his opponents address, but in the portions ignored, but nevertheless... 1. I'm not assuming culpability 2. If "foreknowledge" = "predetermination" why to both terms even exist, and why does scripture...

This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. This arbitrary and unfounded statement asserts a premise which assumes that the Creator of NATURE made it such that men could NOT discern true justice, but only the 'carnal' kind. Yet, Romans 2 clearly teaches that all men are born with a...

The Holy Spirit inspired the gospel. The Holy Spirit preserved the gospel. The Holy Spirit indwells those to proclaim the gospel. (1) When one rejects the gospel are they not actually rejecting a work of the Holy Spirit? (2) Likewise, when one accepts the gospel should that not also be...

And just like everything else you wrote, this amounts to nothing more than the debate fallacy called "question begging." To put that in layman's terms, that means you are saying, "We are right because we are right," to which I would say the same thing to you in an endless cycle. It is a waste...

Nice. But, you do realize the irony of your insult as it falls to the feet of the God who causally determined my blindness of such things, right? Volumes of works have done just that and interestingly enough it is not met with near as much confusion and repulsion as the Calvinist's speculation...

I think we all agree His glory is the ultimate good, but that wasn't the point being made... Such a helpful comment. Thank you. We all believe our view is "according to scripture." Again, such a great contribution. Thanks. Ditto. :rolleyes:

The nature and manner in which it came to pass is indeed significant in a world view where more than one agent is bringing things to pass. But in a world view such as yours, where God is the only agent bringing things to pass through secondary means (other agents He is causally determining)...

Something not mentioned yet is regarding the MEANS the Holy Spirit uses to draw men to himself. Jesus said, "The words I speak to you are spirit and life..." (Jn 6) Who inspired the writing of the gospel? Who perserved it for us in scripture? Who indwells the hearts of those who continue to...

1. Questions about moderation should be handled through PMs, as per the rules. 2. The part of glfredrick's comments that was reported, to my knowledge, was the part about inferring that another was the 'anti-christ'. The other statement you quoted remains in several posts, though the word...

Over the years my 'non-calvinistic' view of divine justice has been deemed 'carnal,' but what is the measure of such an accusation? Calvinism attributes to God determinations, which in any similar human context would be considered unjust by all objective observers. Yet, by what measure do we...

I wonder how God felt when He ordained marke to be 'wrong' in the first place? :rolleyes: