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So, a man creates his own nature? How does that work? How can a God who 'ordains whatsoever comes to pass' not be the one who likewise ordained a man's nature to be what it is? Who, if not God, decided that everyman after Adam would be born 'totally depraved?' Who, if not God, determined...

So, where does the truth that you write come from? Does it come from you or God? If you, then where did you get it? If God, then why is the truth God gave you different from the truth God gave Paul while writing to Rome? What distinguishes that 'truth' from this 'truth?' Isn't God as...

It is called "Inflaming" when a post is meant ONLY to criticize or demean rather than engage a discussion or address the topic. Your post was CLEARLY meant only to demean. As stated, this conversation and point of discussion is a topic among many scholars thus this reply only serves to...

To review. I'm asking about God's direct sovereign intervention in bringing about the writing of scriptures as it relates to his sovereign control over other truths written by his children. That is not an absurd topic and surely doesn't deserve the distain and disgust with which it has been...

This is a topic being discussed and debated by scholars in respected journals on the professional level, so I know better than to accept this dismissal as being valid. Instead it only reveals you lack of objectivity or understanding of my argument. May I respectfully request you revisit the...

Yet that doesn't tell us what it means for God to foreordain (another word for "control" to some). Do you not define free will as men doing what they desire? And is that desire not determined by the man's nature? And who determines men's nature to be such that it cannot choose otherwise...

Archangel, this discussion reminded me of another discussion we had sometime back. I found it and just bumped it back to the top. I think it helps show the distinction I'm attempting to draw regarding man's free choices and God's sovereignty.

I brought this post back up to see if Archangel has a response to my last post to him on page two...

And yet in my very first response to you I acknowledge the compatiblistic view of 'control,' and you continue to claim I take your views out of context. What view do you hold if not the compatiblistic view? Now who is taking others comments out of context? Do you really think that is what I...

No. Read my post you just quoted. I defined my view of free will very clearly in the first two lines...

That is the "objection" that EVERYONE admits to feeling when first confronted with the teaching of Calvinism, as explained in the OP. Even Calvinists admit it is a tough pill to swallow. So, you are right, it doesn't appear fair. That is the premise of my OP. Now, follow along. Given this...

Allow me to repost an earlier post in regard to compatibilism: That is the position you seem to be defending, called compatiblism. I believe in contra-casual freedom..."A choice to act is free if it is an expression of an agent's categorical ability of the will to refrain or not refrain from...

The word 'control' is used ALL THE TIME by both sides in regard to this point. In fact go HERE and you will see where you used the word in our previous discussion on this very point. In fact, on this same page glf quoted a long article which explained the differing aspects of divine 'control'...

I love this quote from Tozer! :thumbsup:

You mean like a parent is in control over their teenager? :tongue3: We agree that God is in control, but we may define 'control' a bit differently. I believe God can control that which he permits without being the cause of the independent choices of others. What does that even mean? Are...

Free moral agents are in control over their free moral choices, or else they would not be free moral agents. Now, do you affirm my statement as true? If so, then reconcile your statement with mine. There is the 'mystery' to which AA referred. I reconcile the two statements by insisting...

Your response is inaccurate, which is commonplace, because we affirm God's Sovereignty and man's responsibility. The problem is in how one defines 'sovereignty,' as I presented in the post above. Fallacy: Begging the Question. "The fallacy of petitio principii, or "begging the question"...

Thanks for that post Ben. It clearly shows that my premise is not at all 'faulty' or 'misrepresentative' of their views. When they claim that (1) God is absolutely sovereign (i.e. 'in complete control over all things...including men's choices') and (2) man is held responsible for those choices...

Right, I created the controversy over free will and sovereignty. :rolleyes: And heaven forbid someone bring up a theological point of controversy on a theological debate forum. :eek:

I understand, and have expounded numerous times, on the various Calvinistic explanations regarding God's "control" of our "free" choices (choices made according to our desire... i.e. compatibilism) I can't point you to those posts if you so desire, but for the purpose of this thread I...