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Most, if not all, believers when first confronted with the Calvinistic dogma fight against it. Even Calvinists testify that they are "dragged kicking and screaming to the doctrine by the scripture." (ref. see Sproul's "Chosen by God") Calvinists often point toward this repulsion that we as...

I agree, Piper is not an arrogant man. He is very humble and modest. Obviously we disagree on our soteriological views, but there is no questioning the man's sincerity and humility in my opinion. Sometimes doctrinal works written with a since of certainty can come across as arrogance... we...

Yes, you should read Desiring God. Good read...

What other kind of salvation is there?

I agree. All doctrinal errors can become dangerous, but the question was whether or not it was essential to salvation, or if one could be a true believer and not affirm this doctrine. That is all I was addressing.

I affirm the virgin birth and would vehemently defend the doctrine, BUT do we really believe salvation is by Grace through faith, or don't we? Is it really by Grace through faith and affirmation of X number of key doctrinal truths? I believe a true Christian can be duped into not affirming...

Quantum, it doesn't do me much good to put him on ignore if you go and quote his non-sense so I have to read it. :laugh: Even after going point by point in my OP to show him that I never denied that Cals affirm individual responsibility he continues with these unfounded accusations. It is...

Actually, I really don't think it is different from most classical Arminians. I just think laziness and simplicity has reduced their views to this "foresight faith" view in much the same way Calvinism is often reduced to the TULIP acrostic when in reality much more is involved. I can respect...

:applause::applause:

I've heard that in a joke about falling down stairs...

I don't deny that is their claim, but my argument is that this claim isn't logically consistent with their view, as I explained in detail above. Going back to the previous illustration: Is it logically consistent for a prisoner in a jail cell to attempt to get out if he truly believes that...

The third point is: "God chose to save whosoever believes in Christ and repents of their sin, even if they are not a Jew." I don't think either of us should disagree with this point, right? I mean, even Calvinists affirm that God has chosen to save anyone who believes, right? We may disagree...

zrs, allow me to pick up where I left off... Is this 'enlightening' an irresistible work in the same manner that he brought you to faith, or do you believe He is just equipping you to freely choose? But you do affirm that if God decreed for you to recover that you will certainly recover and if...

This is my final response to you. You are wasting my time. In my first post I said, and I quote verbatim, "Even if you know the practicality of your theological system doesn't dismiss your obligations..." What do you think that means, Rob? Let me tell you, and please pay very close attention...

Yet I quoted my OP saying that I understand Calvinists 'explain it differently' that 'these are generalities' and that Calvinists don't deny personal obligation and responsibility...but you continue to close your eyes to these facts and turn things into something more combative... Actually I...

Well stated and I agree that most, if not all Calvinists, would say the same. I would have too when I was Calvinistic, but that may or may not change the more 'subconscious' response when you really believe it is all already been decreed. In other words, you can say 'yes' because it is the...

Ok, so let's follow this line of thought to its logical conclusion. If God hasn't decreed for a believing alcoholic to receive medical help then isn't he in the same predicament I have already presented? He is in a jail cell where it APPEARS passivity would be the tendency all things considered.

They didn't agree with my soteriological views. They objectively and cordially responded to my question and my perspective in a brotherly manner. They didn't resort to ad hominem and they didn't become combative. They simply engaged in a discussion from their different perspective. In short...

Please go back and re-read my previous posts and you will see that I specifically explained that the Calvinists don't believe that their doctrine "dismisses one's obligations" and I specifically explained: "Claiming you are responsible for your choices is fine. I know that is what Calvinists...

I never suggested otherwise, but thanks! Coming to understand God more fully doesn't mean that He has changed, just that our understanding of him is more complete. What we know of God we know through a 'dim glass,' according to Paul. What we come to know of him in heaven will be more full...