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I agree, it is ridiculous. Thank You. Tell Aaron and others that, please. You hear it all the time from Calvinists. They say things like, "Would Christ's blood be wasted" or "spilled out on the ground." Or they argue that suffering for that non-elect's sin would have been wasted, as if...

I mean that both people in heaven and hell did evil deeds, so that is not the difference. The difference is FAITH. Those in hell didn't have faith, while those in heaven did. Thus, the X FACTOR is not the deeds, its the faith.

Paul, the apostles to the Gentiles [who is planting Gentile churches in the face of the accusation that those "dirty dog Gentiles" are not God's elect people], is assuring them that they are chosen from the beginning, in that it has been God's plan all along to graft in the Gentiles. This verse...

Well stated, Don! :thumbsup: I've been attempting to make this point for months, but you did a much clearer job. I hope it is understood now. Thanks!

Ok, but i'm not sure what that has to do with our discussion regarding the atonement.

Plus, all you have told us is the condition in which the evil intent originated. It doesn't tell us who originated the intent. I suppose you'd say that Satan must have something to do with it, right? So, Satan while in a vacuum originated the intent to do evil, is that right?

So, suppose I create a robot and remove all good from it thus DIRECTLY causing it to want to kill the next person it sees. How am I not culpable for that? Or, if you don't like that analogy. Suppose I have a child and give him a drug removing all desire to do right thus causing him to lie...

So, if I create an angel and then create a vacuum of nothingness surrounding that angel it will necessarily cause him to intend to do evil? Is that what you are saying? That nothing (a vacuum) caused something (intent)?

Stop here. Nothingness (which is what a vacuum is) caused it? Really? You want to stick with that?

Yet, there is darkness every night and we don't have bus crashes nightly. My point is that the condition of darkness doesn't determine there will certainly be a wreck, it only makes it more likely. There is still the choice of the driver and other factors, which your analogy overlooks. So...

So, if evil is mere the absence of something, then it is NOTHING, thus you have just said, "Nothing originated the intent." How can NOTHING cause SOMETHING?

So who originated the evil motive in Satan? Remember that pesky little question?

Yes, I believe God is patient with everyone and is not wanting anyone to perish, but all to come to repentance. Is that what you are asking?

So then nothing cause Satan's intent, right? If evil itself didn't cause the evil intent then what did, Luke?

But the intent to do evil (i.e. Satan's desire to be like God) IS SOMETHING and the question I asked you is how it originated, so how does your explanation answer that question?

No, I don't believe God's eternal purposes are ever thwarted. Nothing I've ever said even suggests as much. This is a straw man... If I held to the view you apparently think I hold to, then maybe.

You still haven't answered the question about how something (Satan's evil intent) came from nothing (the absence of good). When you do that, I'll proceed...

Depends on what you mean by "control" this time...here we go again...please stop the merry-go-round I want to get off. :) Yet your view suggests that Satan's motives are causally determined by the nature God determined thus leaving no basis for Satan's independent desire/motive/intent. I...

Steve, and others, consider this illustration from Hodge for clarity: "Perhaps this illustration will help. A loving father, seeing his family in peril aboard a sinking vessel, takes a boat out to sea to rescue them. Although the boat is large enough to rescue all aboard the sinking vessel...