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:laugh: I was going to listen to it until you said that!!! ;)

:thumbs: I agree, which is why its frustrating when some here disagree about points that really shouldn't be points of contention. Much of the disagreement is a result of a lack of clarity and subsequent misunderstanding, IMO.

I'd just add that I would see the average mosquito bite falling under God's permissive decree, while the worm seems to be a direct intervention of God's active agency in Jonah's life.

Why do you suppose God doesn't allow some of his elect children see the truth, while others he does?

I see your point brother, but are you suggesting the mosquito can act apart from God's decree, whether permissive or decretive? I know it may seem insignificant, and frankly a mosquito is, but the concept of nothing happening apart from God's divine oversight (decree), is not. That is the...

He seems to affirm the concept of the permissive will of God in regard to moral evil: "God was please to permit the entrance of sin, both in heaven above and in earth beneath, whereby this whole order and harmony was disturbed.” - John Owen

Believe it or not I really do understand your perspective. It is very frustrating to be misrepresented. I remember how I felt when I was a Calvinist sitting in a pastor's office who kept quoting John 3:16 over and over as if I'd never considered that before. Then when that didn't "console me"...

I totally agree. That was my experience when I became a Calvinist at a young age. I'll concede that point as well. Sin within the people who hold to a particular system doesn't negate the validity of the system. Otherwise, Christianity itself would be proven invalid. :)

I agree, but as stated I do believe there is a tendency for new young coverts to give this perception, for the reasons stated by Piper. The latter is not any more representative of one system over the other. It is representative of someone who doesn't credit God with salvation, which is not...

I agree. This is why you can go back throughout my interactions and count the numerous times I have provided a definition of the word "decree" such as the one in the OP. You will also see my continual insistence on my opponent to define their term so as to draw this distinction.

Ok, I can accept that point. But, just look at this from a non-Calvinists perspective. Calvinists talk about God predestining certain individuals to become believers, right? Now, when you use that same terminology to describe the way in which God predestines a person to sin, it gets a bit...

I've continually pointed to that distinction, so I think we are in agreement there. Yep. There is enough arrogance and immaturity to go around, but that wasn't the subject of the OP... I started a blog which kindly and respectfully critiqued Calvinistic doctrine so as to help others not make...

Once again you prove yourself to be an objective and fair individual. :) I think this is a valid point. It certainly is a "stereotype" in that certainly not all Calvinists are arrogant. I worked with Piper several years ago at an event and he was incredibly humble and gracious, as was Al...

That is true. Good point. I was meaning only to address those avoiding the content of the OP, but I should have said so. Not by me. I just think it is interesting that so many of "your own" recognize this tendency among especially new and younger reformed guys. Personally, I think that...

I just read through this and it appears that Willards understanding of God's decree is not in agreement with that of Jonathan Edwards. Would you agree? If not, where is the acknowledgement or teaching of the permissive aspects of God's decrees/will? Thanks

BTW, in case you haven't seen it. I started a thread on the specific subject of God's decrees as they relate to the origin of evil... HERE>

Good, so it should be easy to give examples of things God does and does not bring about by his positive agency and then describe the difference in how God brought them to pass. I challenge you to provide just one link where you have fulfilled this request. Just one. Yes. (with the...

To learn what....that if God doesn't effectually cause you to trust him, you can't?

I agree. But, allow me to continue, if you don't mind: If God hasn't failed to grant Peter what he needed, then what caused Peter to 'not trust' Jesus as he should?

Which decree? The first or second? See my point? By not defining which decree you mean you leave ambiguity as to your intent regarding the origin of sin. I'm simply asking you to affirm that sin falls under the permissive decree of God and to use terminology which would clearly indicate that.