1 Corinthians 2:14 - How does God explain truth?

[Skandelon]

There are innumerable folks who have read the Scriptures. They remain unsaved.

Just as their are innumerable Christians who have read the 'truths' of doctrine, yet we have disagreement. That is why we call men responsible...they are able to respond freely to the revelation they have been given.

How, if one accepts that it is the gospel alone that awakens a person to belief, these not automatically saved?

Because, the gospel ENABLES a respond, it doesn't do the responding. The person is response-able for that, not the revelation. We shouldn't put blame on the revelation for man's choice to 'trade clearly revealed truth for lies.'

They certainly had the means? Did not multitudes even Scholarly schooled in the Scriptures hear from the very Lord Jesus Christ and not actually hear?

And whose fault is that? God's? Did He fail to enable them? Matt. 23:37 and Rom 10:21 teach that God 'longed to gather them' and 'held out his hands to them all day long' but they chose to rebel. Scripture teaches that God is patient with them....but if what you believe is true what does God have to wait on? Himself?

In effect, did they not need the work of the Holy Spirit?

Do you mean a GREATER work of the Holy Spirit than what was already provided in sending Christ, the apostles, the inspired scripture, his Holy Spirit and his Bride?

Jesus presents the answer when talking to Nicodemus. The Spirit goes about and no one knows were it has been or where it is going. It is rather self evident that the Holy Spirit is at work when humankind don't even recognize it is at work and (IMO) often folks assign some human ability as a result of what the Holy Spirit has already awakened.

I agree. The Holy Spirit, like the Father, works through means. I believe those means are the Holy Spirit inspired words of scripture, the indwelling of messengers, the perseverance and continued proclamation of these inspired truths throughout the world. Anything the gospel accomplishes should be credited to the Holy Spirit, it is after all HIS WORK.

The work of the Holy Spirit does not have to wait on the Gospel

Whoa, think about what you just said...that is like saying the work of the Holy Spirit doesn't have to wait on the work of the Holy Spirit. Now, I agree that the Spirit can work in other ways and very possibly prior to the coming of the gospel, but I'd just be careful not to imply that the gospel itself is not a work of the HS.

Therefore, the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1). No doubt. The presentation of Christ is essential for "there is no other name given by which we must be saved" (Acts 4).

We agree on these points, and indeed there may very well be other ways God softens the hearts of people. For example, he apparently uses envy to provoke the hearts of the hardened Jews (Rm 11:14). We just don't believe these means are irresistible and only for a preselect few.

 

[Dr. Walter]

permission to post?

Oh, btw, the good 'dr' Walter still has an active log in if he'd like to join the conversation (in accordance with the rules of the forum, of course).

I am trusting your word is good here and because you are a moderator on the forum that you are representing the view of the forum moderators/administrators. I have refrained from posting thus far because I would not intentionally violate previously expressed wishes that I do not post. So, I am taking a step of trust in your word that I can post.

In regard to the OP. You must remember that Paul is addressing human beings that still have remnants of the fallen nature and who can "yeild" (Rom. 6) to that fallen nature and act accordingly. He expressly states this in 1 Cor. 3:1-3 which immediately follows the text of the OP where he expressly describes their activity as representative of the fleshly (carnal) nature IN CONTRAST TO that which is "spiritual."

So regeneration does not change the character or inabilities of the fallen nature within regenerated persons (Rom. 8:7). This is the only nature found in the lost person (Rom. 8:8). In Galatians 5:16-25 we have both the "works" of the flesh listed in addition to the "fruit" of the Spirit. Both can be seen in true born again believers. However, the fruit of the Spirit originates with the born again new nature while the "works of the flesh" originate with the fallen nature still residing within believers.

I don't believe that anyone could logically argue that 1 Cor. 2:14 or Romans 8:7 or Galatians 5:17-19 are products of the born again nature as the new nature is created "in righteoussness and true holiness" (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10). What is described in these passages cannot possibly be described as "spiritual" or be attributed to the regenerated nature. Therefore, 1 Cor. 2:14 has no reference to the new creation within believers who are being addressed but has reference to something regeneration never changed and which remains the same before as well as after regeneration because regeneration is restricted to only one aspect of human nature (Jn. 3:6 - spirit) and not to his body or flesh (Rom. 7:14,18,24; Gal. 5:16-20). So contextually verse 14 is being applied to the FALLEN NATURE common in both the saved and lost.

CONCLUSION: 1 Cor. 2:14 can only apply to the "carnal" nature and what it says is in perfect consistency with the "carnal" mindset described in Romans 8:7 neither verses can possibly be attributed to the new spiritual nature. Hence, again we have characteristics of the fallen nature rather than some kind of third condition as the bible only knows of two STATES - (1) in the flesh; (2) in the Spirit and a child of God can operate in both STATES while those who are "none of his" can only operated "in the flesh" (Rom. 8:8).

Now, if this post is in violation of the forum administrators, I have only acted upon the word of Skandelon that I am now permitted to post as I would not intentionally violate their rules.

 

[OldRegular]

The Biblicist saw the Jn 6 passage in the same way OR.

Skan apparently believes that Jesus Christ's teaching in John, particularly John 6, are only directed to those of Israel who were judicially hardened according to the prophecy of Isaiah. At least that is the position he took some months back!

 

[Dr. Walter]

Skan apparently believes that Jesus Christ's teaching in John, particularly John 6, are only directed to those of Israel who were judicially hardened according to the prophecy of Isaiah. At least that is the position he took some months back!

Skan as admitted that it has a personal and individual application as well and has admitted that Pharoah is an example of individual application (Rom. 9:16-18).

 

[OldRegular]

Really? How does a verse which doesn't even mention the gospel prove that fallen men are unable to respond to the gospel?

No one denies we must be drawn, but what are the means by which God draws all men to himself (Jn 12:32)? THE GOSPEL is sent after Jesus is lifted up and that is the powerful enabling means by which God draws all men to himself.

What in the world was Jesus Christ preaching while HE was here Skanselon?

Matthew 4:23. And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Mark 1:14, 15
14. Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15. And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

 

[BobRyan]

The problem is many folks believe man has to be "brought up" to God's level to understand the gospel. Therefore they insist a supernatural work has to be performed on the unbeliever to enable him to hear and understand the gospel.

But the exact opposite is true, the scriptures teach that God "came down" to our level and spoke to ordinary men with ordinary words they could hear and believe if they so chose to listen.

The problem with Calvinism is in inference and extremes.

having said that - God said that He "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 -- that is supernatural, unlimited and universal - like the Cross.

God said that "He draws ALL men unto Him" John 12:32 -- that is supernatural, unlimited and universal - like the Cross..

God said in Gen 3 that He "puts emnity between the see of the woman and the seed of the serpent" that also is supernatural, unlimited and universal - like the Cross.

It is a supernatural context for all the lost and the saved.

It is a "baseline" of the supernatural context in which we live - saved or not.

And that supernatural element is sufficient to enable all mankind with choice. It is sufficient to allow us to respond in repentance under conviction and confession under conviction and choosing to accept Christ... choosing belief in Christ.

After that comes the new Birth/regeneration etc.

Calvinism lumps everything "including the new birth" under one "supernatural" umbrella and so -- deprives the lost of it since clearly they are not born-again.

The web of Calvinism is woven very carefully. And it includes the fallacy that a large arbitrarily selected group of mankind is without any supernatural influence from God - apart from the New Birth.

But our response to it cannot be that we have agree with them that there is some large group of mankind living in an isolation chamber and apart from the supernatural work of God. That would be to swallow half of the fallacy that Calvinism is proposing.

When Arminians buy into Calvinist proposals - it can be a loss for the Arminian position.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In the example I gave below - Ehrman is an example of an atheist living in the "context" of that world wide supernatural work of God - yet a lost person that chooses to reject the Gospel invitation - though fully enabled by the work of God - to accept it if he chooses.

Bart Ehrman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman

is perhaps one of the great illustrations of Paul's point above. Here you have what amounts to an atheist touted world-wide as American New Testament scholar, currently the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at UNC Chapel Hill.


A more confused Bible scholar you could hardly ever hope to find.

Paul's point is not about the lost being unable to be "convicted of basic truth by the Holy Spirit". In Romans 1 Paul says the lost are "without excuse" because of the great conviction and revelation about God given to them -- of which they are indeed aware according to the chapter. John 16 says the Holy Spirit convicts "the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" but He does not turn "The world" into first class top notch accurate Bible scholars -- atheist or not.

But what Paul speaks to in 1Cor 2 is the depravity of the lost that does not allow them to go much beyond that Romans 1 level.

The lost might read the letter to the Corinthians only to confirm and solidify their desire for the religion of atheism doubt and unbelief.

The first step for the lost is to stop rejecting the light, the truth that they DO have. When they try to get advanced degrees in Bible knowledge while being lost - it only results in confusion and error. Bible vacuous positions that rely on doubting and ignoring the details of scripture that do not fit their atheist-religion and traditions.

 

[Dr. Walter]

What in the world was Jesus Christ preaching while HE was here Skanselon?

Matthew 4:23. And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Mark 1:14, 15
14. Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15. And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

The problem is that some on this forum do not believe regeneration occurred prior to Pentecost but is strictly a post-pentecost act of God. Thus they have a third type of human being exisitng prior to Pentecost. This third type is neither "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit" (Rom. 8:8-9). Hence, they have salvation prior to Pentecost that is OUTSIDE of Christ (when prior to Pentecost Jesus denied this - Jn. 14:6).

 

[Dr. Walter]

I am trusting your word is good here and because you are a moderator on the forum that you are representing the view of the forum moderators/administrators. I have refrained from posting thus far because I would not intentionally violate previously expressed wishes that I do not post. So, I am taking a step of trust in your word that I can post.

In regard to the OP. You must remember that Paul is addressing human beings that still have remnants of the fallen nature and who can "yeild" (Rom. 6) to that fallen nature and act accordingly. He expressly states this in 1 Cor. 3:1-3 which immediately follows the text of the OP where he expressly describes their activity as representative of the fleshly (carnal) nature IN CONTRAST TO that which is "spiritual."

So regeneration does not change the character or inabilities of the fallen nature within regenerated persons (Rom. 8:7). This is the only nature found in the lost person (Rom. 8:8). In Galatians 5:16-25 we have both the "works" of the flesh listed in addition to the "fruit" of the Spirit. Both can be seen in true born again believers. However, the fruit of the Spirit originates with the born again new nature while the "works of the flesh" originate with the fallen nature still residing within believers.

I don't believe that anyone could logically argue that 1 Cor. 2:14 or Romans 8:7 or Galatians 5:17-19 are products of the born again nature as the new nature is created "in righteoussness and true holiness" (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10). What is described in these passages cannot possibly be described as "spiritual" or be attributed to the regenerated nature. Therefore, 1 Cor. 2:14 has no reference to the new creation within believers who are being addressed but has reference to something regeneration never changed and which remains the same before as well as after regeneration because regeneration is restricted to only one aspect of human nature (Jn. 3:6 - spirit) and not to his body or flesh (Rom. 7:14,18,24; Gal. 5:16-20). So contextually verse 14 is being applied to the FALLEN NATURE common in both the saved and lost.

CONCLUSION: 1 Cor. 2:14 can only apply to the "carnal" nature and what it says is in perfect consistency with the "carnal" mindset described in Romans 8:7 neither verses can possibly be attributed to the new spiritual nature. Hence, again we have characteristics of the fallen nature rather than some kind of third condition as the bible only knows of two STATES - (1) in the flesh; (2) in the Spirit and a child of God can operate in both STATES while those who are "none of his" can only operated "in the flesh" (Rom. 8:8).

Now, if this post is in violation of the forum administrators, I have only acted upon the word of Skandelon that I am now permitted to post as I would not intentionally violate their rules.

I don't want to get too far from this first post until it is clear I can post

 

[BobRyan]

The problem is that some on this forum do not believe regeneration occurred prior to Pentecost but is strictly a post-pentecost act of God.

The OT saints of Hebrews 11 (the giants of Faith in the hall of Faith) had to be saved under the ONE gospel model.

In Gal 1:6-9 only ONE Gospel -- saved by grace through faith -- and the New Birth is key to the Gospel solution for sin.

In Gal 3:7-8 The ONE Gospel is preached to Abraham.

In Heb 4:1-2 "The Gospel was preached to US JUST as it was to them also"

and in 1Cor 10 they were drinking from a Rock "and that Rock (Petra) was Christ" for He was the one that they served and followed in the wilderness.

It is not necessary for the Arminian POV to reject these key Bible statements.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[webdog]

The problem is that some on this forum do not believe regeneration occurred prior to Pentecost but is strictly a post-pentecost act of God. Thus they have a third type of human being exisitng prior to Pentecost. This third type is neither "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit" (Rom. 8:8-9). Hence, they have salvation prior to Pentecost that is OUTSIDE of Christ (when prior to Pentecost Jesus denied this - Jn. 14:6).

Completely untrue. Unless one is born again they cannot see the kingdom of God. This applied just as much to those pre-cross as post.

Its these blatant misrepresentations that lead to completely fruitless dialogue.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am trusting your word is good here and because you are a moderator on the forum that you are representing the view of the forum moderators/administrators. I have refrained from posting thus far because I would not intentionally violate previously expressed wishes that I do not post. So, I am taking a step of trust in your word that I can post.

In regard to the OP. You must remember that Paul is addressing human beings that still have remnants of the fallen nature and who can "yeild" (Rom. 6) to that fallen nature and act accordingly. He expressly states this in 1 Cor. 3:1-3 which immediately follows the text of the OP where he expressly describes their activity as representative of the fleshly (carnal) nature IN CONTRAST TO that which is "spiritual."

So regeneration does not change the character or inabilities of the fallen nature within regenerated persons (Rom. 8:7). This is the only nature found in the lost person (Rom. 8:8). In Galatians 5:16-25 we have both the "works" of the flesh listed in addition to the "fruit" of the Spirit. Both can be seen in true born again believers. However, the fruit of the Spirit originates with the born again new nature while the "works of the flesh" originate with the fallen nature still residing within believers.

I don't believe that anyone could logically argue that 1 Cor. 2:14 or Romans 8:7 or Galatians 5:17-19 are products of the born again nature as the new nature is created "in righteoussness and true holiness" (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10). What is described in these passages cannot possibly be described as "spiritual" or be attributed to the regenerated nature. Therefore, 1 Cor. 2:14 has no reference to the new creation within believers who are being addressed but has reference to something regeneration never changed and which remains the same before as well as after regeneration because regeneration is restricted to only one aspect of human nature (Jn. 3:6 - spirit) and not to his body or flesh (Rom. 7:14,18,24; Gal. 5:16-20). So contextually verse 14 is being applied to the FALLEN NATURE common in both the saved and lost.

CONCLUSION: 1 Cor. 2:14 can only apply to the "carnal" nature and what it says is in perfect consistency with the "carnal" mindset described in Romans 8:7 neither verses can possibly be attributed to the new spiritual nature. Hence, again we have characteristics of the fallen nature rather than some kind of third condition as the bible only knows of two STATES - (1) in the flesh; (2) in the Spirit and a child of God can operate in both STATES while those who are "none of his" can only operated "in the flesh" (Rom. 8:8).

Now, if this post is in violation of the forum administrators, I have only acted upon the word of Skandelon that I am now permitted to post as I would not intentionally violate their rules.

Welcome back brother.....another solid biblical post...Jesus taught the same truth here...it was revealed to Peter...by God:thumbsup::wavey::thumbs:

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

 

[BobRyan]

Completely untrue. Unless one is born again they cannot see the kingdom of God. This applied just as much to those pre-cross as post.

And this is completely consistent with the Arminian POV - though I am sure many Calvinists also accept it as well. (R.C. Sproul certainly does.)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Iconoclast]

webdog

Completely untrue. Unless one is born again they cannot see the kingdom of God. This applied just as much to those pre-cross as post.

Its these blatant misrepresentations that lead to completely fruitless dialogue.[

WD,

Nothing is being represented at all.Some on BB believe men are not regenerated until "after they first do something"...believe ,have or exercise faith...etc:wavey:

 

[Dr. Walter]

Completely untrue. Unless one is born again they cannot see the kingdom of God. This applied just as much to those pre-cross as post.

Its these blatant misrepresentations that lead to completely fruitless dialogue.

Web, I agree with your position. However, there are some on this forum (at least two) that completely deny the new birth occurred prior to Pentecost. I know because I had to defend the new birth prior to Pentecost. I can go find the articles if you need to see them. I am not talking about posts a long time ago but recently within the last two months. These posters argued that John 3:3-5 and reference to "circumcison of the heart" in the Old Testament were prophetic only but were not applicable until after the cross and specifically not until Pentecost. I have no reason to lie about this as I presented several posts defending pre-Penteocost regeneration.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Welcome back brother.....another solid biblical post...Jesus taught the same truth here...it was revealed to Peter...by God:thumbsup::wavey::thumbs:

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Glad to be back, thanks for the welcome

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

I think the problem is that folks assume an unregenerate man must be a "natural" or "carnal" man, and cannot behave or think any other way.

But the scriptures show that unregenerate men can be "devout" and "spiritual" if they so choose to be.

Scripture says they cannot...but you denying rom3:23..All sinned at one point in time...invent a wounded sinner with full ability...rather than a dead sinner:thumbsup:

We know for a fact that Cornelius was neither saved

,

We know no such thing...Cornelius was at this point an OT saint, like those in acts 19......

So, the scriptures are not teaching that unsaved, unregenerated men are always natural or carnal men, they can choose to be spiritual or "devout" if they so choose.

you deny romans 3 and 5 again.

 

[webdog]

webdog




WD,

Nothing is being represented at all.Some on BB believe men are not regenerated until "after they first do something"...believe ,have or exercise faith...etc:wavey:

Our flesh cannot inherit paradise, everyone from Adam on needs to be made new. Whether OT or NT, faith is the avenue one is born again. The Bible is crystal clear it is through faith one is justified. Its ridiculous to state one is made alive and not yet justified.

 

[Iconoclast]

Our flesh cannot inherit paradise, everyone from Adam on needs to be made new. Whether OT or NT, faith is the avenue one is born again. The Bible is crystal clear it is through faith one is justified. Its ridiculous to state one is made alive and not yet justified.

Correct...I agree:wavey::wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman is not a good example of a non call. Many of his positions are unorthodox among no cals.

Correct:thumbsup::thumbs::wavey: