1 John 5:1 we become Sons of God after believing, Regeneration after Faith

[Greektim]

Too bad all of people's time spent on learning Greek
isn't spent on hearing God's voice!

Of course, to benefit ... one must actually be OPEN to hearing
correct doctrine, which is in opposition to "the doctrines of men".

Too bad there isn't an "unhelpful" button to push for you.

And did you here how silly you sound? Those who spent time learning Greek are hearing God's voice better than you. B/c God spoke the NT in Greek. You are getting his Word through a translation. Ever sat and listened to a sermon while it is translated. Boring!

And in this case, the correct doctrine is based on the Greek grammar and syntax. Anything else would be "doctrines of men".

So if you are in agreement with revwmc, hows about you contribute something with substance?

 

[TCassidy]

Too bad all of people's time spent on learning Greek
isn't spent on hearing God's voice!

God inspired His New Testament in Greek. To ignore that fact is to ignore "hearing God's voice."

Of course, to benefit ... one must actually be OPEN to hearing
correct doctrine, which is in opposition to "the doctrines of men".

Yes. The hearer must be open to the bible's teaching that salvation is all of God and none of man. Unfortunately some of those who see salvation as synergistic are often incapable of understanding what the bible is teaching.

 

[TCassidy]

Tim, it seems we posted simultaneously. Great minds think alike.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Tim, it seems we posted simultaneously. Great minds think alike.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Too bad all of people's time spent on learning Greek
isn't spent on hearing God's voice!

And God spoke the NT and it was written in Greek, as Brothers GT & TC already pointed out.

Of course, to benefit ... one must actually be OPEN to hearing correct doctrine, which is in opposition to "the doctrines of men".

One is not merely opened to hearing. He is closed to all things God. God must quicken him first. In this quickening, God gives a new heart, eyes, and ears. If a man is truly open to hearing God, the correct doctrine, it is God who has enabled him to hear it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Let me see horrenfouswork 10 hours a day, study for 4 lessons sometime during the week, on top of that, wife and I have running to do and family time yea that fairly well sums it up here at lunch time

You can save some time by not studying for your lessons as you have disqualified yourself by this horrendous display of why some should not attempt to teach anything as they offer error upon error and will not be corrected....

 

[Browner]

God spoke the NT and it was written in Greek,
as Brothers GT & TC already pointed out.

Pretty much all of the translators have done
a good enough job to more than satisfy God.
'Tis simply not necessary for all of the beyond-incredible
intellectual wizards here on dis forum to give their most
wonderfully-incredible take on the Greek words, phrases,
clauses, sentences, and paragraphs in Scriptures.
Butski, thanks anyway.

Something else most of you won't believe ...
Many years ago, there was a thing going on about,
"Which translation is the best?" (or some such wording).
The Lord told me to run from this, and NOT be involved.
As in:
Our Bibles are plenty good enough.
They all present the major important Truths.
(Except those written by cults, such as da JWs,
who insist that Jesus was "a" god, John 1:1.)

 

[TCassidy]

(Except those written by cults, such as da JWs,
who insist that Jesus was "a" god, John 1:1.)

How do you know that is not the correct translation?

Could it be that the absence of a definite article demands the indefinite article?

Or could it be that the word translated "God" (Θεος) is in the emphatic position?

After all, without a knowledge of the language God chose for the inscripturation of His word you would have no way of knowing.

Ignorance is not bliss. Ignorance is ignorance.

 

[John of Japan]

I'm back from Africa. Had a wonderful time, trained translators, got the ball rolling on one translation and my sidekick gathered data to analyze the language for an unwritten tribal translation. God is good! And I bought the hat (national soccer team) and found out it was made in China. (Who would have thunk it!)

I hope the OP does not preclude arguments from semantics, because syntax without semantics is useless, or course. So, consider the semantics of gennao. Here is the Friberg definition:
"1. be or become the father of, beget lit. Mt 1:2ff, 20; J 8:41; 9:34; Ac 7:8, 29. Fig. J 1:13; 1 Cor 4:15; Phlm 10; 1 J 2:29.—2. of women: bear Lk 1:13, 35, 57; Ac 2:8; 22:28 .—3. fig. cause, produce 2 Ti 2:23." [pg 38]

Now, please notice that almost all of the usages are "to bear, begat, or in other words. "to produce life." In the one instance (1 Tim. 2:23) where the word means "cause, produce" something else it is a figure of speech, not the normal lexical meaning. Even more importantly, the thing that is produced is in the accusative--the object of the verb. So, for gennao in 1 John 5:1 to mean that all the ones believing were made so by being regenerated, "all the ones believing" would have to be in the accusative. That phrase is nominative, meaning that it is the subject of the sentence.

Furthermore, remember that there is no noun in Greek meaning "believer." The substantival participle must fulfill that function. Therefore, once again I say that "all that believe" is simply the subject of the sentence in 1 John 5:1, not something produced by the verb. So a valid translation would be, "All who are believers that...."

Let me add a quote from David Alan Black here: "The tense of the participial construction expresses relative time rather than absolute time: the present tense usually indicates that the action of the participle occurs concurrently with that of the head verb." (Linguistics for Students of New Testament Greek, p. 113). Therefore, in 1 John 5:1 the participle (believing ones) and the main verb (have been born) are happening at the same time, and the main verb did not cause the substantival participle.

 

[percho]

I'm back from Africa. Had a wonderful time, trained translators, got the ball rolling on one translation and my sidekick gathered data to analyze the language for an unwritten tribal translation. God is good! And I bought the hat (national soccer team) and found out it was made in China. (Who would have thunk it!)

I hope the OP does not preclude arguments from semantics, because syntax without semantics is useless, or course. So, consider the semantics of gennao. Here is the Friberg definition:
"1. be or become the father of, beget lit. Mt 1:2ff, 20; J 8:41; 9:34; Ac 7:8, 29. Fig. J 1:13; 1 Cor 4:15; Phlm 10; 1 J 2:29.—2. of women: bear Lk 1:13, 35, 57; Ac 2:8; 22:28 .—3. fig. cause, produce 2 Ti 2:23." [pg 38]

Now, please notice that almost all of the usages are "to bear, begat, or in other words. "to produce life." In the one instance (1 Tim. 2:23) where the word means "cause, produce" something else it is a figure of speech, not the normal lexical meaning. Even more importantly, the thing that is produced is in the accusative--the object of the verb. So, for gennao in 1 John 5:1 to mean that all the ones believing were made so by being regenerated, "all the ones believing" would have to be in the accusative. That phrase is nominative, meaning that it is the subject of the sentence.

Furthermore, remember that there is no noun in Greek meaning "believer." The substantival participle must fulfill that function. Therefore, once again I say that "all that believe" is simply the subject of the sentence in 1 John 5:1, not something produced by the verb. So a valid translation would be, "All who are believers that...."

Let me add a quote from David Alan Black here: "The tense of the participial construction expresses relative time rather than absolute time: the present tense usually indicates that the action of the participle occurs concurrently with that of the head verb." (Linguistics for Students of New Testament Greek, p. 113). Therefore, in 1 John 5:1 the participle (believing ones) and the main verb (have been born) are happening at the same time, and the main verb did not cause the substantival participle.

So I ask. Does that therefore mean that both, the believing and the being born, came about at the same time because of being, "of God"? Is that inclusive in the syntax and semantics? Does the Greek say that? I know no Greek.

 

[TCassidy]

So I ask. Does that therefore mean that both, the believing and the being born, came about at the same time because of being, "of God"? Is that inclusive in the syntax and semantics? Does the Greek say that? I know no Greek.

Remember the context of this passage in 1 John is the "overcomer." John (the bible John, not our John) simply says "Every one believing (believing = a Present, Active, Nominative, Singular Verb) that Jesus is the Anointed of God, has been generated (has been generated = a Perfect, Passive, Indicative, 3rd Person, Singular Verb) and every one loving the One generating is loving the one having been generated by Him."

John is saying that the overcomer overcomes because of his position in Christ, and that he is an overcomer is proof that he is in Christ. And the faith by which he overcomes is the product of His having been generated by God.

I know that John (our John, not the bible John) disagrees with this, but I can't help to think he has overly complicated the verse due, possibly, to his distaste for the doctrine of Particular Redemption. His Grandfather, the incomparable Evangelist John R. Rice, wrote a fairly well known pamphlet entitled Hyper-Calvinism: A False Doctrine. Unfortunately, in that writing he confused Calvinism with Hyper Calvinism. He describes "Hyper Calvinism" as

Those whom we call hyper-Calvinists usually outline their doctrinal position as represented by the letters TULIP:

T for Total Depravity of the sinner
U for Unconditional Election
L for Limited Atonement
I for Irresistible Grace
P for Perseverance of the saints

Unfortunately, that is not Hyper Calvinism. That is Calvinism. Hyper Calvinism goes beyond Calvinism (thus the "hyper").

Dr. Rice did touch on some of the "hyper" aspects of the error of Hyper Calvinism but then erroneously attributed them to Calvinists.

For example, he said

they believe that some are foreordained by unconditioned election to go to Hell

It is absolutely true that double predestination is a hallmark of hyper Calvinism, but it has nothing at all to do with true Calvinism.

that salvation was never provided for nor offered for them.

Half true. Half false. Salvation, IE, the atonement, was not provided for those who did not believe. But the gospel offer is universal. It was for that universal offer that Christ is said, in 1 Timothy 4:10 "who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." The "all men" part makes the gospel offer legitimate for all and the "especially for those who believe" limits the application to believers only.

Those who do believe a doctrine of God's limited love, limited grace, limited atonement, and unchangeable plan to damn millions who could not be saved, are called hyper-Calvinists.

Again, Dr. Rice conflates two very different things, Calvinism and Hyper Calvinism. We do not believe in limited love, as God is love and God is certainly not limited. We don't believe in limited Grace. We do limit the atonement, not in its ability to save, but in its application to save. It is unlimited in its power to save, but limited in its application to those who believe.

Buy the way, all Christians, except a few Universalists, limit the atonement. Even John R. Rice did not believe the devil and his demons would be saved. He limited the atonement to humans.

These extreme doctrines were first taught somewhat by Augustine. Then for about a thousand years no one found them in the Bible, of course, till Calvin developed such a theology. Adopting the theory men then persuaded themselves that they find it in the Bible.

Simply untrue. I would recommend two excellent books on the history of Monergism:

Foundations of Grace (Long Line of Godly Men) (Long Line of Godly Men Profiles): Steven J. Lawson: 9781567690774: Amazon.com.

Pillars of Grace (A Long Line of Godly Men, Volume Two): Steven J. Lawson, Greg Bailey: 9781567692112: Amazon.com.

Prior to Augustine's day the emphasis had been taken up in correcting heresies within the Church and in refuting attacks from the pagan world in which it found itself. Little emphasis had been placed on the systematic development of doctrine.

Even Augustine did not formulate his Soteriology as a dissertation on doctrine, but to counter the heresy of Pelagius, who taught that man in his natural state had full ability to work out his own salvation, that Adam's fall had but little effect on the race except that it set a bad example which is perpetuated, that Christ's life is of value to men mainly by way of example, that in His death Christ was little more than the first Christian martyr, and that we are not under any special providence of God.

The hyper-Calvinist says sinners are totally depraved and so incapable of repentance except as God calls some selected individuals, and leaves others He has predestined for Hell, unable to repent.

Again Dr. Rice conflates Calvinism and Hyper Calvinism. He says we teach God "leaves others He has predestined for Hell, unable to repent." Untrue. Again, we do not believe God predestines anyone for Hell. All of mankind is already predestined for hell, and except for the gracious intervention of God, none would be saved. I am so grateful for those whom He has lifted out of the miry clay and established their feet on the solid Rock of Christ!

Well, this is turning into a marathon, so I will pack it in for this evening.

By the way, welcome back, John. Good to hear the good report from Africa.

 

[Greektim]

I'm back from Africa. Had a wonderful time, trained translators, got the ball rolling on one translation and my sidekick gathered data to analyze the language for an unwritten tribal translation. God is good! And I bought the hat (national soccer team) and found out it was made in China. (Who would have thunk it!)

I hope the OP does not preclude arguments from semantics, because syntax without semantics is useless, or course. So, consider the semantics of gennao. Here is the Friberg definition:
"1. be or become the father of, beget lit. Mt 1:2ff, 20; J 8:41; 9:34; Ac 7:8, 29. Fig. J 1:13; 1 Cor 4:15; Phlm 10; 1 J 2:29.—2. of women: bear Lk 1:13, 35, 57; Ac 2:8; 22:28 .—3. fig. cause, produce 2 Ti 2:23." [pg 38]

Now, please notice that almost all of the usages are "to bear, begat, or in other words. "to produce life." In the one instance (1 Tim. 2:23) where the word means "cause, produce" something else it is a figure of speech, not the normal lexical meaning. Even more importantly, the thing that is produced is in the accusative--the object of the verb. So, for gennao in 1 John 5:1 to mean that all the ones believing were made so by being regenerated, "all the ones believing" would have to be in the accusative. That phrase is nominative, meaning that it is the subject of the sentence.

Furthermore, remember that there is no noun in Greek meaning "believer." The substantival participle must fulfill that function. Therefore, once again I say that "all that believe" is simply the subject of the sentence in 1 John 5:1, not something produced by the verb. So a valid translation would be, "All who are believers that...."

Let me add a quote from David Alan Black here: "The tense of the participial construction expresses relative time rather than absolute time: the present tense usually indicates that the action of the participle occurs concurrently with that of the head verb." (Linguistics for Students of New Testament Greek, p. 113). Therefore, in 1 John 5:1 the participle (believing ones) and the main verb (have been born) are happening at the same time, and the main verb did not cause the substantival participle.

Great to have you back, John! Glad to hear you had a great trip. I love the work that you and others like you do.

I have a request.

Can we take up the syntactical and semantic argument on the thread I created. The one started here after mine by revwmc was done by a guy who has no knowledge of Greek and been abusing the language so much that you would have had to tell him to rein it in. He has ignored completely the arguments I've been making and just keeps falling back to the same silly things he keeps saying which fly against the Greek grammar.

Plus, I'd love to have a real debate/discussion with somone knowledgable of these things.

 

[percho]

Remember the context of this passage in 1 John is the "overcomer." John (the bible John, not our John) simply says "Every one believing (believing = a Present, Active, Nominative, Singular Verb) that Jesus is the Anointed of God, has been generated (has been generated = a Perfect, Passive, Indicative, 3rd Person, Singular Verb) and every one loving the One generating is loving the one having been generated by Him."

John is saying that the overcomer overcomes because of his position in Christ, and that he is an overcomer is proof that he is in Christ. And the faith by which he overcomes is the product of His having been generated by God.

I know that John (our John, not the bible John) disagrees with this, but I can't help to think he has overly complicated the verse due, possibly, to his distaste for the doctrine of Particular Redemption. His Grandfather, the incomparable Evangelist John R. Rice, wrote a fairly well known pamphlet entitled Hyper-Calvinism: A False Doctrine. Unfortunately, in that writing he confused Calvinism with Hyper Calvinism. He describes "Hyper Calvinism" as Unfortunately, that is not Hyper Calvinism. That is Calvinism. Hyper Calvinism goes beyond Calvinism (thus the "hyper").

Dr. Rice did touch on some of the "hyper" aspects of the error of Hyper Calvinism but then erroneously attributed them to Calvinists.

For example, he said It is absolutely true that double predestination is a hallmark of hyper Calvinism, but it has nothing at all to do with true Calvinism.Half true. Half false. Salvation, IE, the atonement, was not provided for those who did not believe. But the gospel offer is universal. It was for that universal offer that Christ is said, in 1 Timothy 4:10 "who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." The "all men" part makes the gospel offer legitimate for all and the "especially for those who believe" limits the application to believers only.Again, Dr. Rice conflates two very different things, Calvinism and Hyper Calvinism. We do not believe in limited love, as God is love and God is certainly not limited. We don't believe in limited Grace. We do limit the atonement, not in its ability to save, but in its application to save. It is unlimited in its power to save, but limited in its application to those who believe.

Buy the way, all Christians, except a few Universalists, limit the atonement. Even John R. Rice did not believe the devil and his demons would be saved. He limited the atonement to humans.
Simply untrue. I would recommend two excellent books on the history of Monergism:

Foundations of Grace (Long Line of Godly Men) (Long Line of Godly Men Profiles): Steven J. Lawson: 9781567690774: Amazon.com.

Pillars of Grace (A Long Line of Godly Men, Volume Two): Steven J. Lawson, Greg Bailey: 9781567692112: Amazon.com.

Prior to Augustine's day the emphasis had been taken up in correcting heresies within the Church and in refuting attacks from the pagan world in which it found itself. Little emphasis had been placed on the systematic development of doctrine.

Even Augustine did not formulate his Soteriology as a dissertation on doctrine, but to counter the heresy of Pelagius, who taught that man in his natural state had full ability to work out his own salvation, that Adam's fall had but little effect on the race except that it set a bad example which is perpetuated, that Christ's life is of value to men mainly by way of example, that in His death Christ was little more than the first Christian martyr, and that we are not under any special providence of God.
Again Dr. Rice conflates Calvinism and Hyper Calvinism. He says we teach God "leaves others He has predestined for Hell, unable to repent." Untrue. Again, we do not believe God predestines anyone for Hell. All of mankind is already predestined for hell, and except for the gracious intervention of God, none would be saved. I am so grateful for those whom He has lifted out of the miry clay and established their feet on the solid Rock of Christ!

Well, this is turning into a marathon, so I will pack it in for this evening.

By the way, welcome back, John. Good to hear the good report from Africa.

Thanks for the long reply. I'm 73 about 30 years as Presbyterian and about 30 as Southern Baptist. I don't feel as if I have ever been hyper nor was John C. Don't think I would not consider myself to be even Calvinst but Monergist I am. If God doesn't save and by his power keep us saved, we'll not inherit the kingdom of God. JMO

I guess I was asking if the phrase or the genitive, of God, of what little Greek I have been able to pick up on not make, the rest to be exactly that, of God?
In other words, if God wasn't in the genitive could you then say they were believing ones from some source other than God? Hope this makes sense.

GreekTim also.

 

[revmwc]

John from Japan in stated:

Furthermore, remember that there is no noun in Greek meaning "believer." The substantival participle must fulfill that function. Therefore, once again I say that "all that believe" is simply the subject of the sentence in 1 John 5:1, not something produced by the verb. So a valid translation would be, "All who are believers that...."


revmwc from Interlinear, "Individually those think to be true that Jesus to be Christ (Believe) out from the God making them His son indeed individually that love that God making Christ of Himself"

Seems to match doesn’t it, all who believe.


Again John of Japan, Let me add a quote from David Alan Black here: "The tense of the participial construction expresses relative time rather than absolute time: the present tense usually indicates that the action of the participle occurs concurrently with that of the head verb." (Linguistics for Students of New Testament Greek, p. 113). Therefore, in 1 John 5:1 the participle (believing ones) and the main verb (have been born) are happening at the same time, and the main verb did not cause the substantival participle.

Again those who believe are born of God because of believing.


revmwc: God makes everyone who individually believes, His sons, because of their Faith in Him. The KJV says is born, others say has been born, however that perfect passive verb is not in the original language, as we see above. We see that the Greek states those who think to be true that is believe Jesus to be Christ God makes them His son.

Seems John states the same thing just in a way Greek scholars can understand it.

Now to John have I missed what you are saying and do we agree? Did I misstate your position? Now the perfect passive verb form “gegennetai” which is derived from “gennao” need the English verb form, has, is or even have been, in order to say that the one born of or from God is that way due to God making them regenerated before they believe. The same with 1 John 2:29, 1 John 4:7. These state those born of or from God produce righteousness that is their works of righteousness are performed because of being born of God, and those born of God produce Love of the brethren and the Born of ones are so because they have believed, not that they believed because they have been born of God. Which was the whole point of the OP.

 

[Greektim]

Now to John have I missed what you are saying and do we agree? Did I misstate your position? Now the perfect passive verb form “gegennetai” which is derived from “gennao” need the English verb form, has, is or even have been, in order to say that the one born of or from God is that way due to God making them regenerated before they believe. The same with 1 John 2:29, 1 John 4:7. These state those born of or from God produce righteousness that is their works of righteousness are performed because of being born of God, and those born of God produce Love of the brethren and the Born of ones are so because they have believed, not that they believed because they have been born of God. Which was the whole point of the OP.

Please, John, answer him here. He thinks we are adding to the verb gegennetai when we say it is perfect passive and so to convey that in English it should be translated "he/she/it has been born".

 

[revmwc]

You can save some time by not studying for your lessons as you have disqualified yourself by this horrendous display of why some should not attempt to teach anything as they offer error upon error and will not be corrected....

Except God called me to pastor and has given me a church in which I serve to honor HIM not men and especially not the men on here. So 4 messages a week is not too much to give to Serving MY LORD Jesus, who saved me because of my Faith in Him and has gifted me with the gift of Pastor-Teacher and called me to Pastor for Him. So I believe I will continue to study and utilize the commentaries and dictionaries and the tools He has gifted me with.

 

[revmwc]

You can save some time by not studying for your lessons as you have disqualified yourself by this horrendous display of why some should not attempt to teach anything as they offer error upon error and will not be corrected....

I see you take liberties to add to my post in the quote you used here is the Real post

"Let me see work 10 hours a day, study for 4 lessons sometime during the week, on top of that, wife and I have running to do and family time yea that fairly well sums it up here at lunch time."

Here is what you attributed to me

Let me see horrenfouswork 10 hours a day, study for 4 lessons sometime during the week, on top of that, wife and I have running to do and family time yea that fairly well sums it up here at lunch time

How many others do you add to what they say?

 

[Iconoclast]

Except God called me to pastor and has given me a church in which I serve to honor HIM not men and especially not the men on here. So 4 messages a week is not too much to give to Serving MY LORD Jesus, who saved me because of my Faith in Him and has gifted me with the gift of Pastor-Teacher and called me to Pastor for Him. So I believe I will continue to study and utilize the commentaries and dictionaries and the tools He has gifted me with.

All the more reason that when solid biblical correction is offered, and it has been....you should welcome the correction gladly.
You seem to want to hold onto the ERROR with a death grip.....Failure to welcome correction is not the sign of a faithful person, much less someone who is in any teaching position.

 

[revmwc]

All the more reason that when solid biblical correction is offered, and it has been....you should welcome the correction gladly.
You seem to want to hold onto the ERROR with a death grip.....Failure to welcome correction is not the sign of a faithful person, much less someone who is in any teaching position.

When solid biblical correction is offered I do gladly accept it. I did on my formal education and I do when the Holy Spirit shows me that what some call correction is truth. Everytime I speak with someone with a differing view I study it out and if the Holy Spirit leads me to accept an alternative view to what I have been believing then I will follow it. But in the case of God regenerating one before belief scripture doesn't teach that. Quite the opposite is true salvation is the gift of God to all who by Faith believe. Faith brings regeneration not vice versa.

 

[Iconoclast]

When solid biblical correction is offers I do gladly accept it. I did on my formal education and I do when the Holy Spirit shows me that what some call correction is truth. Everytime I speak with someone with a differing view I study it out and if the Holy Spirit leads me to accept an alternative view to my I will follow it. But in the case of God regenerating one before belief scripture doesn't teach that. Quite the opposite is true salvation is the gift of God to all who by Faith believe. But faith brings regeneration not vice versa.

the Holy spirit is not to be blamed for the error you hold, and continue to hold.....the error is all of you.You have resisted at least 4-5 people on this thread alone.