1 Timothy 2:1-6 Another all?

[johnp.]

Wes.

To say that "NNE SEEKS AFTER GOD" as you have, is a misnomer, because when we are beset by our situation, even the athiest cries out for God to save him.

Yes to God maybe but never to Jesus! Even in their sin they cry out but God will have nothing to do with them. He only deals through Jesus!

Granted, the instant relief comes, the person may well revert to their own state of rebellion.

They cry out in their rebellion. I am an evangelist. I know people. We talk of Jesus but they speak of God.
There is an advocate to speak on their behalf but they hate Him. All men are in that condition always unless saved from it. Rom 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
It cannot change. The sinful mind cannot submit and so is unwilling to do so. It is not that they will not it is because we cannot change our spots. Be told! It's as clear as clear.

But God gave them a chance to know HIM.

I know of no such thing as 'chance' and neither does my Father.

johnp.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Yes to God maybe but never to Jesus! Even in their sin they cry out but God will have nothing to do with them. He only deals through Jesus!

Did Jesus not tell us "I and the Father are one"? If you know that, it is imcumbant upon you to believe it! Jesus is GOD the Son! Your statement that "he only deals through Jesus!" Completely negates GOD the HOLY SPIRIT! Yet you oft state that the Holy Spirit regenerates us. What is it you believe about God?

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

Did Jesus not tell us "I and the Father are one"?

He did.

If you know that, it is imcumbant upon you to believe it!

I do.

Jesus is GOD the Son!

I know.

Your statement that "he only deals through Jesus!" Completely negates GOD the HOLY SPIRIT!

No it don't.

Yet you oft state that the Holy Spirit regenerates us.

That's good to hear.

What is it you believe about God?

What do you mean?

johnp.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi John P;
If the Holy Spirit regenerates us so that we can believe then we are saved by the Holy spirit. Regeneration is being born again or saved. The Bible says;
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
So how is it that Calvinism claims we are saved by the Holy Spirit?
May God Bless;
Mike

 

[rc]

John P,

Amen to your reply to me....
Iluvlight.. H.S. enables people to see the beauty and glory of Christ. Through Him we see the Father.

Aethiest don't cry for God in foxholes for salvation... they want to just be saved so they can keep denying Him... The heart HAS TO BE CHANGED! Foxholes don't do that the Holy Spirit does...

Nobody has anwered John P's verse yet... NNE SEEKS AFTER GOD...How can a man that never seeks after God "FIND" Jesus?

Jesus said :John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, " He didn't say your not my sheep because you don't believe..

Ray,
I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. Why did you choose God and others haven't?... What did YOU do?

 

[johnp.]

Thank you rc, that's very gracious of you.


ILUVLIGHT

If the Holy Spirit regenerates us so that we can believe then we are saved by the Holy Spirit.

We are saved by Jesus. Jesus sends the Holy Spirit. It is the way the Godhead works. I don't know why you ask me such a question. Anyone with the slightest idea of what we are saying know this is what we believe. Have no others answered this point to you?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Exactly. It's only by Him that we can go to the Father. We cannot go to the Father as a sinner. We have to have our sins forgiven. When our sins forgiveness is applied to us the curtain is removed and we stand before our Father forever.

So how is it that Calvinism claims we are saved by the Holy Spirit?

If you were chosen, if your name is in the book, if you are one of the lost sheep, elect, a lost penny or a hidden treasure the Holy Spirit will be asked to go and turn our will, to will in us to do His will. His will is that we should be gathered into His sheep pen. His house. Then and only when the Holy Spirit goes to work on us are we regenerated.
That He will lose none of those He has been given.

Does that answer you?
We can't speak to the Holy Spirit can we? We are told to ask Jesus. We can't speak to the Law can we? There is a legal problem. We must have an advocate. Trying to speak to the Father will be just like talking to the law that is prosecuting you! Anyone being saved will be directed by the Father by the Holy Spirit towards Jesus. It's to Jesus alone we must go. He is the God Man interface between us and our being one in HIm.

...the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law...
John 6:28-29 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
And that is not what those do who cry out to God but want nothing of Jesus.

johnp.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Matthew 23:37 and Acts 7:51 is stating the same truth. The Israelites in the distant past as well as the ones living during the writing of the Book of Acts held the most firm position against the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. In the first reference Jesus is saying face to face with the descendents of His own nationality made up of individual souls, something to the effect that I wanted you to believe in Me, but ‘ye would not!’

The Bible teaches this point of Arminianism and it is Resistible Grace. Jews and Gentiles can resist His call to hope of eternal life above. Irresistible Grace is a flat out lie and,
therefore, a misnomer.

Some people would not see the truth if a Mack truck hit them in the face with Biblical truth.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Matthew 23:37 and Acts 7:51 is stating the same truth. The Israelites in the distant past as well as the ones living during the writing of the Book of Acts held the most firm position against the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. In the first reference Jesus is saying face to face with the descendents of His own nationality made up of individual souls, something to the effect that I wanted you to believe in Me, but ‘ye would not!’

The Bible teaches this point of Arminianism and it is Resistible Grace. Jews and Gentiles can resist His call to hope of eternal life above. Irresistible Grace is a flat out lie and,
therefore, a misnomer.

Some people would not see the truth if a Mack truck hit them in the face with Biblical truth.

Actually, what Jesus said was that He would have gathered their children, but they would not allow it. I don't think Arminianism covers that.

Besides, it is apparent from your comments that what we mean by Irrestible Grace is not what you think we mean.

 

[Ray Berrian]

whatever,

Besides, it is apparent from your comments that what we mean by Irrestible Grace is not what you think we mean.

Running for cover again!

 

[Southern]

Mike,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark 1:5
Question: Did "all" without exception go to John to be baptized? Or did "all" people without distinction as to kind or social class go?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is here that makes you think it was possible that they all weren't baptised by John?

Do you believe that every single individual (all) from Judea and Jerusalem submitted to baptism by John?

Luke 7:30 says:
But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.


Mike, there is no way to argue that the word "all" always means "all inclusive" as the above example and others I cited:

Acts 22:15
Question: Was Paul to be a witness to "all" without exception? I sure hope not because I have never met Paul. Paul was to be a witness to Gentiles as well as Jews. "All without distinction" as to 'kind'.

The question is what does "all" mean in I Tim. 2:4. Pauls sets the context in verse 2 speaking about "kings" and "those in authority" (kinds of men). The word all is being used to refer to "all without distinction" as in Luke 7:30.

Question: If you say "all" can only mean all inclusive, then do you think it was Pauls purpose for Timothy to pray for "all" (each and every person without distinction)? Was he telling Timothy to get a phone book and pray from the A's and all inclusively through the Z's?

Or could Paul be saying that we are not to keep people out of our prayers because of what "kind" they are (Rulers, vs.2;Gentiles, vs.7). God will have all "kinds" of men to be saved and has not confined his salvation to one social status, race, or gender.

Think about it...

[ December 19, 2004, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: Southern ]

 

[rc]

Ray,

Still waiting for that reply... or any Arminian for that matter...If noone seeks after God...Why where you saved,and others not? ...

 

[Ray Berrian]

Choice is clear in Scripture, but I don't see anything about God decreeing any person's forced conversion to eternal life. [Revelation 22:17f & g]]

 

[Wes Outwest]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Mark 1:5 Question: Did "all" without exception go to John to be baptized? Or did "all" people without distinction as to kind or social class go?

What is here that makes you think it was possible that they all weren't baptised by John?</font>[/QUOTE]Try the sheer magnitude of numbers vs Johns ability to baptize the number included in "ALL" in the period of time allocated to John by God. Even if John could baptize one per minute and there were 14 hours of light per day all year long, and John had unlimited stamina, the total that could be baptized in a year by John is 306,600. This does not take into consideration the travel time from location to location that would have to occur for John to reach all the Israelites, and that number is not even close to the estimated population of Israel of that day. Maybe Jerusalem, but not all of Israel. So, simple reasoning leads to the conclusion that of all that John did baptize, he did so without regard to "any distinctions", and in the manner that God saves only those who have FAITH in Him, John baptized only those willing to be baptized. No one was forced to be dunked!

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
whatever,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Besides, it is apparent from your comments that what we mean by Irrestible Grace is not what you think we mean.

Running for cover again!

</font>[/QUOTE]How is pointing out your misunderstanding "running for cover"?

 

[Wes Outwest]

JohnP said,

That He will lose none of those He has been given.

Is the whole of mankind not given to the Son? If not, how is it possible for the Son to have dominion over them?

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
whatever,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Besides, it is apparent from your comments that what we mean by Irrestible Grace is not what you think we mean.

Running for cover again!

</font>[/QUOTE]How is pointing out your misunderstanding "running for cover"? </font>[/QUOTE]According to whom is Ray's understanding, "misunderstanding"?

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by rc:
Ray,

Still waiting for that reply... or any Arminian for that matter...If noone seeks after God...Why where you saved,and others not? ...

Quite simple RC, Ray heard the word of God and believed unto FAITH which is Salvation for those possessing such faith!

Those who do not have such faith have either not heard the word, or they chose of their on cognizance to not believe the word.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
whatever,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Besides, it is apparent from your comments that what we mean by Irrestible Grace is not what you think we mean.

Running for cover again!

</font>[/QUOTE]How is pointing out your misunderstanding "running for cover"? </font>[/QUOTE]According to whom is Ray's understanding, "misunderstanding"? </font>[/QUOTE]According to Calvinists. Read this if you want to find out why.

 

[padredurand]

How, now are we to live? As Piperists? Who will become his antithesis?

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by padredurand:
How, now are we to live? As Piperists? Who will become his antithesis?

Running for cover?

Seriously, nobody suggested any such thing. I just pointed out that what Mr. Berrian called Irresistible Grace is not what Calvinists believe, and offered up as evidence an article that I think is pretty clear about what we really believe. Do with it what you will. If you can.