2ed of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

[BobRyan]

Ed said

Actually it is quite a compliment to the SDA that
they didn't make the error of the Mormons and look for Jesus in a secret room.

As nice as that must be for SDAS - I still don't see how this helps your case in Matt 24.

Ed said
Actually it is quite a compliment to the SDA that
they didn't make the error of the Baha'i and look for Jesus out in the desert.

And they don't make the error of the Catholics of worshipping Idols or praying to the dead...

And they don't make the error of limited atonement or of Calvinism.

"I know I know" all this is good for SDAs.

But still how is this helping the subject of the rapture move forward?

 

[BobRyan]

Ed said

You have to ignore that at the end of the 69th week Jesus
arose from the grave providing our Victory over sin and the grave.
You have to have Jesus having a 3½-year ministry (2½ is about
all you can really find), dying in the middle of the 70th week,
and have a phony 3½-year last half of the 70th week that extends
from the Death of Jesus four years later to the death of Stephen.

This is not correct.

As pointed out - Daniel 9 shows that at the end of the 69th week (the start of the 70th) is the START of the annointed one's ministry - the Messiah comes - His ministry STARTS just when the prophecy predicts.

With the annointing of Christ by the Holy Spirit at His baptism. Messiah means "annointed one".

He has to die "in the midst of the week" which is not a precise middle. Though it is easly shown that the ministry of Christ begins on the Day of Atonement and that this is 6 months away from Passover.

to ignore all of the Messianic events listed in Daniel 9 so that you have NONE OF THEM in the prophecy "(as you do)" takes dedication.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

While your 'facts' are true, they do NOT invalidate what I
said. BTW, you will note i did NOT mention the SDA = Seventh
Day Adventists, a modern day denomination.

"Modern" - as in organizing from the 1850's to the 1860's when they formally organized.

As opposed to - the 1840's? </font>[/QUOTE]As a denomination that exists today: 19 Oct 2005.

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: //As pointed out - Daniel 9 shows that at the end of the 69th week (the start of the 70th) is the START of the annointed one's ministry - the Messiah comes - His ministry STARTS just when the prophecy predicts.//

Unfortunately after the first seven weeks, at the end then
of the 69th week and just before the 70th week
the prophecy is:

Dan 9:26a (KJV1611 Edition):
And after threescore and two weekes,
shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himselfe, ...

This is a far cry (half a week) from:
"His ministry STARTS just when the prophecy predicts"

 

[Ed Edwards]

Bubba Me4Him: //Do ya seepose if'n I started preaching
"ONLY REDNECKS" go to heaven,
I could get enough people to follow me and "contribute", for the
church benefit of course, to buy me a "NEW LINCOLN", maybe Air
condition my Dog's house, and send "ME" on a religious "CRUISE"
for educational purposes, "OF COURSE". //

I bettcha'! I checked the Cruise part. Most cruise lines are
similiar: If you get 24 people to sign up, your room is free
except for taxes and fees. If you want to take your wife along, sign
up 24 more. If you want to have the cassino and bars closed, sign
up about 75%+ of the ship. Regular discounts are not available
for these 'deals'. (I.e. those who pay have to pay the regular price).

Imma thinkin' of startin' a line of Coon Burger Stores. We could combine
the two orginizations You get saved faster if you eat more at
the Coon Burger Store. (Actually this is true. Racoon meat is high
in co-lesty-rahl - it will stop your heart sooner and you will get
to go meet your master sooner.) Coon Burger frequent flyers can
get a discout your church - 8% tithes

Now about that Lincoln. See some fly-by-night evanjelliests start
a college that starts a university that grants them an honorary degree
(it is harder then working for a Dr. Degree but don't taken so much smarts).
All you have to do is be the preacher man at the church and have the
church buy the local Lincoln dealership. Then you can drive new Lincolns
until they sell.

Token paragraph mentioning the second Chapter of Second Thessalonians.
This reminds me, in your church you may want to replace the
ROMAN ROAD (to salvation) pamplet with the LINCOLN HIGHWAY Plan
of Salvation and Money Now.

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: //2300-490 is 1810.

//27 ad is the start of the 70th week so 34 AD so the 7oth week ends in 34 AD.

//1810 plus 34 AD is 1844.

//Daniel 8:14 says that this timeline points to a time
when the sanctuary is cleansed as predicted in
the Levitical Sanctuary system of types.

//Since this is the Heb 8 "True Sanctuary" in heaven
and not merely the earthly one -- we look for an answer there.//

This logic starts with this un-noted assumption:

The start of the 2300 days is the same start as the 490 years
(70 weeks). Because the logic leads to the FALSE conclusion that
Jesus returned in 1844*, you picked the WRONG start date
for the 2300 years.

*Unless, of course, you happen to be Mormon or Baha'i

Daniel 8:9-13 is the prophecy of the little horn that
commits the abomination of desolation (AOD). The AOD
is the start of the 2300 days. What was the date of the
AOD by Antichous Ampiphanes? (I don't have a history book open
or i'd list the date and and spell the guys name right)
The next AOD is 70AD. 70AD + 2300 years is 2370AD.

Daniel 8:14 (KJV1769):
and he said unto me: Unto two thousand and three
hundred days, then shall the sanctuary be clensed.

Now let me talk about the six day theory of Bro. Me4Him:

God created Adam on the feast of Trumpets 3760BC.
So this is the 5765th year since Adam (which started
a couple of weeks ago. That leaves of the 6,000 years
235 left (not six or seven). So Jesus will have the
Second Coming (phase 2) in 2240AD.

So I've computed two dates ONE GENERATION apart:
2370 to 2240AD. That will be the terminal generation
from 2370 to 2240AD. Tee Hee

Now let me tell you what I really believe.
Jesus can come back anytime God the Father wants Him to
come back. I beleive (according to 2 Thess chapter 2
that the church members will fall into the hands of Jesus:
the live ones off their couches, the dead ones out of their
graves (everybody on earth will know -- come on, man, it is loud enough
to literaly WAKE THE DEAD). This will happen according to
God's plan to restore national Israel: the Tribulation period.

 

[Me4Him]

BOB

Da 9:15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand,

Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

THY PEOPLE clearly is "JEWS".

So, the 70 weeks were determined on "JEWS", but the Jews rejected Jesus, they were then "blinded", an the gospel given to the Gentiles.

But my point is this, the church had no part in the first 69 weeks, and neither does it have a part in the 70th week.

The "Law and prophet" system of leadership stopped with JOHN/JESUS,

This means the 3 1/2 years Jesus preached, "ISRAEL" had no part in the church, so if the 70 weeks were for "THY PEOPLE", the period Jesus preached (3 1/2 years) "CAN NOT" be counted as any part of the 70 weeks.

Therefore we have a "ONE WEEK left.

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: //But still how is this helping
the subject of the rapture move forward?//

I find 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 and
Matthew Chapter 24 parallel describing the same plan
of God through the same present (ours) and future.
You say my Matthew 24 is out of order, yet Jesus was
right on about AD1844 in Matthew 24:23-26.

----------------------------------
Study my Matthew 24 writing:
----------------------------------
In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

//27 ad is the start of the 70th week so 34 AD so the 7oth week ends in 34 AD.

//1810 plus 34 AD is 1844.

//Daniel 8:14 says that this timeline points to a time
when the sanctuary is cleansed as predicted in
the Levitical Sanctuary system of types.

//Since this is the Heb 8 "True Sanctuary" in heaven
and not merely the earthly one -- we look for an answer there.//

This logic starts with this un-noted assumption:

The start of the 2300 days is the same start as the 490 years
(70 weeks). Because the logic leads to the FALSE conclusion that
Jesus returned in 1844*, you picked the WRONG start date
for the 2300 years.

Again your logic is flawed.

1. The fact that the 490 year timeline is given by the Angel of Daniel 9 as "an explanation" of the Vision in chapter 8 is beyond dispute. It is given IN the text!

2. The idea that the 490 year timeline ends with the second coming OR that the 2300 days point to the second coming INSTEAD of the time for the cleansing of the sanctuary -- is also just a false assumption.

Nothing in the 2300 year timeline includes the 2nd coming and nothing in the 490 year timeline includes the 2nd coming.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
...
This means the 3 1/2 years Jesus preached, "ISRAEL" had no part in the church, so if the 70 weeks were for "THY PEOPLE", the period Jesus preached (3 1/2 years) "CAN NOT" be counted as any part of the 70 weeks.

Therefore we have a "ONE WEEK left.

Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it!

 

[BobRyan]

ED

Daniel 8:9-13 is the prophecy of the little horn that
commits the abomination of desolation (AOD). The AOD
is the start of the 2300 days.

Again - this is simply lack of attention to detail -- only this time in Dan 8.

The vision of the 2300 days STARTS in vs 4 with the Persian empire during the time of its dominance. It continues on through the rise and fall of Greece according to the text.

Then the question about "the vision" is "HOW LONG is the VISION" and the answer is that the VISION ITSELF covers a time of 2300 years.

The 490 years of Daniel ALSO goes back to the SAME point in time -- during the dominance of the Persian empire.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
[QB]
Now let me talk about the six day theory of Bro. Me4Him:

God created Adam on the feast of Trumpets 3760BC.
So this is the 5765th year since Adam (which started
a couple of weeks ago. That leaves of the 6,000 years
235 left (not six or seven). So Jesus will have the
Second Coming (phase 2) in 2240AD.

The Jewish calender is off by about 240 years, (best I remember) A book was published (which I didn't read) not long ago that explained where the time was lost, in addition to that, a time line was published by another which showed every king and event in Jewish history, while it didn't address the lost years, it did confirm the error in the Jewish calendar.

IF I can remember where I saw the timeline, I'll get a copy of it.

So I've computed two dates ONE GENERATION apart:
2370 to 2240AD. That will be the terminal generation
from 2370 to 2240AD. Tee Hee

If the "GENERATION" of "HER BRANCH" passes, scripture "FAILS", That's the "Bottom line".

Mt 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Mt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, (God) which made a marriage for his son, (His Branch/Jesus)

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. (JEWS)

Mt 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. (Jerusalem, 70AD)

Ps 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; (70)

"EXACTLY" as prophesied.


Mr 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

Mr 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Lu 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; (HIS/HER)

30 When they (both trees) now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

That's "THREE WITNESS" to the "END OF TIME", Matthew, Mark, Luke.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />ED

Daniel 8:9-13 is the prophecy of the little horn that
commits the abomination of desolation (AOD). The AOD
is the start of the 2300 days.

Again - this is simply lack of attention to detail -- only this time in Dan 8.

The vision of the 2300 days STARTS in vs 4 with the Persian empire during the time of its dominance. It continues on through the rise and fall of Greece according to the text.

Then the question about "the vision" is "HOW LONG is the VISION" and the answer is that the VISION ITSELF covers a time of 2300 years.

The 490 years of Daniel ALSO goes back to the SAME point in time -- during the dominance of the Persian empire.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Wasn't this the same means by which Jesus's return was calculated, which failed???

 

[Ed Edwards]

Me4Him: //The Jewish calender is off by about 240 years,
(best I remember) A book was published (which I didn't read)
not long ago that explained where the time was lost, ...//

I studied this evidence. I do not believe it.

The error is we don't know when the rapture is going to take
place. And anything that leads to a past date is WRONG.

The SDA (and other adventist groups) hide Miller being wrong
about 1844 by spirtiualizing it. Come on, why would a sanctuary
in heaven need clensing? The Sanctuary couldn't get into
heaven unless it was squeky clean! And they hardly ever mention
that Miller's first date was in 1843. Then he said it must be
1844, he had missed a year because there is no year zero.
(The fellow who said 1988 also revised his 'estimate' to 1989
because he also forgot to figure there is no year zero.

As for Hebrew dates, i beleive they are right on the money.
IT IS THE DOCTRINE of '1,000 Year of History = 1 day of creation'
that is in error (unless, it being future, happens to be right

)

Other dates I also don't beleive are correct.
I believe that Jesus was born on 25 Dec BC0001 and was
circumcised eight days later (according to the Law of Moses)
on 1 January AD0001.
I believe that Jesus died in the spring of AD0033
and arose 72 hours later.
Any Bible 'fact' that conflicts which what i belive is
misunderstood.

Another think you need to study, Bro. Me4Him is the requirement
and execution of the YEAR OF JUBILEE. How many years
of Jubilee were skipped and how long was Israel's punishment
for skipping them?

 

[Ed Edwards]

I ran across a note to myself:

Hebrews 9:26 calls the first appearance of Jesus
"the end of the world"

Heb 9:26 (KJV1611 Edition):
For then must hee often haue suffered since the foundation of the world:
but now once in the end of the world, hath he appeared
to put away sinne by the sacrifice of himselfe.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Me4Him: //The Jewish calender is off by about 240 years,
(best I remember) A book was published (which I didn't read)
not long ago that explained where the time was lost, ...//

I studied this evidence. I do not believe it.

The error is we don't know when the rapture is going to take
place. And anything that leads to a past date is WRONG.

"Past date"?? reminds me of 2Th 2:2, they were worried the rapture had already occurred and they were "left behind", but some claim the scripture is referring to the "END OF THE WORLD", so how could you be "left behind" at the "End of the world"???

Jesus only said we couldn't know the "DAY AND HOUR", not the "week", "Month" or "Year", and when ya read the rituals associated with the rapture corresponding feast, the JEWS don't know the "DAY AND HOUR" the "NEW MOON" appears.

So Jesus's reference appears to be a "VEILED" reference as to when it "Would occur".

The first five events occurred on the "EXACT DATES" given for their corresponding Feast, there's "NO REASON" not to believe it won't continue.

As for Hebrew dates, i beleive they are right on the money.
IT IS THE DOCTRINE of '1,000 Year of History = 1 day of creation'
that is in error (unless, it being future, happens to be right

)

There's one thing for "SURE", we don't have long to wait for the "TRUTH" to be manifested.

Other dates I also don't beleive are correct.
I believe that Jesus was born on 25 Dec BC0001 and was
circumcised eight days later (according to the Law of Moses)
on 1 January AD0001.
I believe that Jesus died in the spring of AD0033
and arose 72 hours later.
Any Bible 'fact' that conflicts which what i belive is
misunderstood.

From the First Adam until "Abraham" father of the nation of Israel was 1948 years,

From the "SECOND ADAM" (Jesus) until Israel's restoration was also 1948 years, I'd say our calendar is exact, to the year.

Another think you need to study, Bro. Me4Him is the requirement
and execution of the YEAR OF JUBILEE. How many years
of Jubilee were skipped and how long was Israel's punishment
for skipping them?

I seen many try to make the "Jubillee" fit into prophecy and the 2 thousand years since Jesus, but none seen to work out with scripture.

This is the Church time period, God isn't dealing with Israel, what applies to Israel is on "HOLD" until God starts dealing with them again during the trib.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Me4Him: //Jesus only said we couldn't know the "DAY AND HOUR",
not the "week", "Month" or "Year", ... //

Sorry, i still don't buy your 'leap of faith'.
Here are some prophetic definitions:

DAY - the appropriate time
HOUR - the appropriate time
WEEK - the appropriate time
MONTH - the appropriate time
YEAR - the appropriate time

The pre-tribulation rapture by the Lord is
closer today than it was yesterday - one day
closer - because another day has gone by.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Me4Him: //Jesus only said we couldn't know the "DAY AND HOUR",
not the "week", "Month" or "Year", ... //

Sorry, i still don't buy your 'leap of faith'.
Here are some prophetic definitions:

DAY - the appropriate time
HOUR - the appropriate time
WEEK - the appropriate time
MONTH - the appropriate time
YEAR - the appropriate time

The pre-tribulation rapture by the Lord is
closer today than it was yesterday - one day
closer - because another day has gone by.

Actually, My "leap" isn't very big at all, five out of eight is a pattern you "BET ON" in any "Guessing Game".

And it's very obvious, events are following the feast day pattern/rituals.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

The pre-tribulation rapture by the Lord is
closer today than it was yesterday - one day
closer - because another day has gone by.

That would be true for mid-trib and post-trib as well.

Nothing new there.

2 Thess 2 "THAT day WILL NOT come unless the falling away come FIRST".

There ARE events predicted in the NT to preceed the return (coming again) of Christ - where He "appears". (These are the only terms used in scripture). The saints were eagerly "awaiting His return" in the NT.

See Rev 16 as it preceeds Rev 19.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Again - this is simply lack of attention to detail -- only this time in Dan 8.

The vision of the 2300 days STARTS in vs 4 with the Persian empire during the time of its dominance. It continues on through the rise and fall of Greece according to the text.

Then the question about "the vision" is "HOW LONG is the VISION" and the answer is that the VISION ITSELF covers a time of 2300 years.

The 490 years of Daniel ALSO goes back to the SAME point in time -- during the dominance of the Persian empire.

In Christ,

Bob

Originally posted by Me4Him:

Wasn't this the same means by which Jesus's return was calculated, which failed???

No. The way the Millerites determined the coming of Christ was to take the popular and erroneous view that the term "Cleansing of the sanctuary" in Dan 8 had nothing to do with the REAL (and ONLY) sanctuary in operation post cross and also to swallow the popular notion that in Daniel 7 the coming of the Son of Man TO THE courtoom of the Ancient of Days was to be ignored and to be reworked into "The Coming of the Son of Man to Earth".

By accepting those two popular myths - they came to the wrong conclusion.

HOWEVER IF you spin that around to ACCEPT the myths but IGNORE the Bible (so you can reject their conclusion) then not only do you suffer error in that case - but also you would be adopting a model that would charge error to the Disciples for foolishly "Believing" Zech 9 as it points to the first coming of the Messiah and His triumphal entry!!

It is better to not use such methods.

The Disciples had accepted the popular legend that when the Messiah came in the Zech 9 model on the donkey - he was NOT coming to save the world from sin - but rather to save the Jews from the Romans!

The correction is to toss out the urban legend they had swallowed NOT to reject the text of scripture!

In Christ,

Bob