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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jarthur001, Jul 15, 2006.

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  1. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Well, It has been to some like pulling teeth, but nonetheless we have reached a mid-ground where we nearly all agree…in part….well sorta….in away. :) It was nearly sidetracked with the "foreseen" quarrel, yet the context held its own. WE MUST address the foreseen, subject in detail.

    Before we move to the next few verse maybe we should see the point in all its glory. :)

    This as.. DHK said..and others now agree...means this division is a big deal because of the subject. Bob was right in that Paul was addressing the Church, as are all the “Epistles to the churches.” The context however is the preaching of the gospel and why some do not believe. What the division has to do with the subject is limitless in reasons. God 1st worked though one nation, the Jews. This is now the church age where God reaches out to the Gentiles. We today reach both groups in different ways. There is much we could add to this, but maybe others will want to share ideas. As to the subject...this is clear.

    WOW...what a play on words. What a Great God.
    :)

    In Christ..James
     
    #81 Jarthur001, Jul 17, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2006
  2. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I only ask one thing and that is Please highlight "believe", for after we believe we receive Christ the power of god and the wisdom of God. "Fear of God is the beginningof wisdom".

    The first sermon taught to the Apostles after the resurrection of Christ was; "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature and they that believe and are baptized shall be saved.

    For after you believe then are ye called, and then predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, (which is to be made Christ like) then are ye justified (that being by the blood of Christ) and then are you Glorified which is to come for us but not for God for He already sees us Glorified for He sees all.
     
    #82 Brother Bob, Jul 17, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2006
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    3 groups:

    1 Corinthians 10:32 (KJV1769):
    Give none offence, neither to the JEWS,
    nor to the GENTILES, nor to the CHURCH OF GOD.
     
    #83 Ed Edwards, Jul 17, 2006
  4. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    You're right Bob...A overlook on my part...and I meant nothing by it. Not sure why I stopped where I did. :)
    I mean...with the believe part. That last part is...will silly and out of order. Sorry...just the way I feel.


    Now.. we will see why some did NOT believe.





    In Christ...James
     
    #84 Jarthur001, Jul 17, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2006
  5. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Ed;
    I do not disagree with you at all but there is another way to look at it and that is 2 groups;
    The world= both Jews and Gentiles
    The Church= both Jews and Gentiles

    You are right also but most the time when preaching we preach two groups the Church and the World or at least I do.
     
    #85 Brother Bob, Jul 17, 2006
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    ONE: people
    TWO: Jews and Gentiles
    THREE: unsaved Jews, unsaved Gentiles, and members
    of the Church of God
    FOUR: unsaved Jews, unsaved Gentiles, saved Jews,
    and saved Gentiles.

    But 1 Cor 10:32 menitions the THREE case only.
     
    #86 Ed Edwards, Jul 17, 2006
  7. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Aw Ed;
    You just put it 4 different ways so I guess I can put it 2. :)
     
    #87 Brother Bob, Jul 17, 2006
  8. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Hello......

    Now to the harder part of the text.

    1) Did God cause some not to believe?
    2) Why are some not called?

    What is the meaning here?



    In Christ..James
     
    #88 Jarthur001, Jul 18, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2006
  9. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    :
    (This is the answer to it all James)
    21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. (He plainly tells us how to overcome the wisdom of men so we have the wisdom of God, and that is to "believe".


    1 Corinthians, chapter 2

    "13": Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    Ecclesiastes, Chapter 9
    "16": Then said I, Wisdom is better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom is despised, and his words are not heard.

    It is saying we cannot worship God in the Flesh, that is not to say we cannot "believe", for it is a commandment of God to believe and if you do believe then are you called, predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son (made Christ like), justified (by the blood of Jesus) and Glorified which we waiteth but God hath already seen for He sees all things.
    :flower:




     
    #89 Brother Bob, Jul 18, 2006
  10. Blammo

    Blammo New Member

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    Yep, I agree, three groups of people. I guess that concludes this thread. Since that was the whole point. Right, Jarthur? Unless we are getting a lesson on Calvinism. Maybe I'm being presumptuous. We shall see...
     
    #90 Blammo, Jul 18, 2006
  11. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Hello Bob,




    I would agree..this is the call to salvation and the great wording is...though the world see you as a fool...be a fool and become wise. I love that!!! :)

    Yet..this is what must be addressed...Why are some NOT called?

    26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called


    IN Christ..James
     
    #91 Jarthur001, Jul 18, 2006
  12. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    The OP has been clear from the start... :)

    Blammo, Its good to see you come around to look at the text. What we saw for so many post was a defending of a doctrine and not wanting to say the very words of the text. Sometimes a text will be harder for our views. (wait till we get to romans 9 :) )

    No lesson needed, just a look at the text. All that wants to share...may. If not...so be it.



    In Christ..James
     
    #92 Jarthur001, Jul 18, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2006
  13. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    That is a good quote for to the world we are fools I guess.
    Because of unbelief!
     
    #93 Brother Bob, Jul 18, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2006
  14. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    You keep changing the meaning of "foreknew" to fit your soteriology. That's not what the Bible says. It says "those he foreknew" not "those he knew beforehand would believe".

    You can conjure up in your imagination that He foreknew them because He also knew beforehand that they would believe, but at least admit this is your theory, not a Biblical statement. Because it never says that in the Bible anywhere.
     
    #94 npetreley, Jul 18, 2006
  15. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Sorry James, this doesn't place me in the supralapsarianism camp. God is in all places, in all times...at the same time. There is no pre or fore with God. God set the condition that man believes...gives man the ability to believe...and knows who will believe or not, because He exists in all times...all at the same time, and not apart from each other, and remaining 100% sovereign.
     
    #95 webdog, Jul 18, 2006
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  16. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    God...outside of time...does't "fore" anything. Those phrases are for us...man...to get a slight glimpse of God's sovereignty. He exists in the past, present and future...all at the same time.
     
    #96 webdog, Jul 18, 2006
  17. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    I will have to disagree..for this view is supralapsarianism.

    Remember...in your view time is not factor...to God.

    Lets look at each statement as I show you...from your own words.

    (God is in all places))
    With no time, there is no place. The whole over all things is made-up of time, space and matter. Matter occupies a place for a given time. You are a person that takes up space in Gods universe, made of flesh and bones (matter) and will last only a short time and be gone. Time is part of the plan of God. I will agree that in seeing, God sees all as if it were today, Yet He works within the universe of mass beings occupying space…for a given time, for it is He that designed it that way. No?

    ((There is no pre or fore with God))
    Agree. This is what makes your view supralapsarian. This is why most Calvinist hold up Gods decrees. God must have decree or we are just a puppet of the Puppet Master. Remove time, you remove decrees, for decree is not needed. With no time, all actions just become, for God makes and does at the same moment with no thought of time or man. God only KNOWS and then MAKES..and that is it...if we remove time from His work.

    ((God set the condition that man believes.))
    There would be no condition set, for there would be no need to have a condition. If God does not work within time, FORE...God makes and elects as He makes. There is no need to see if one believes, ...why look and see when no time passes? God would just make ....elect and then make the damned. This my friend is...supralapsarianism

    ((gives man the ability to believe))
    With no time, there is nothing to give. Why give anything when it happens as it is made. With no time..God just MADE!! Again..supralapsarianism

    ((and knows who will believe or not))
    With no time 1st there would be noone to believe. If God did make, and there was no time, He would have to make the action to believe as he made the mass of matter. For no time would pass, and no changes would happen, unless the change was part of the creation. Change only happens in TIME!! If no time passes..there is no change. This is again why Must Calvinist hold to Gods powerful decree that shows a plan and design...not a Puppet Master.

    ((because He exists in all times...all at the same time))
    In your view..you cannot say this. All you can say is...God exist.

    ((remaining 100% sovereign))
    well..this would keep Him sovereign...I'll give you that one. :)


    In Christ...James
     
    #97 Jarthur001, Jul 18, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2006
  18. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    Webdog, what Scriptural support do you cite for your Eternal Now theory of God?
     
    #98 Andy T., Jul 18, 2006
  19. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    God's omnipresence, omnipotence. I don't think any Scripture has either word, but if God isn't both...He's not God.
     
    #99 webdog, Jul 18, 2006
  20. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Npet:
    I will accept webdog's answer to your question and save me the time.
     
    #100 Brother Bob, Jul 18, 2006
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