3 classes of People

[webdog]

It's quite possible that God's name for himself, Yahweh, does not attempt to convey time categories, but something else. For instance, it might convey that he is the same yesterday, today and forever, not that yesterday and tomorrow exist in the same manner as today.

I also wanted to add that "I AM" is conveyed by either a temporary state...or an eternal state. It can't be "something else".

 

[webdog]

Why so combative? There is a difference between knowing the future and existing in the future, which entails that the future exist in some other dimension. All orthodox believers hold that God knows the future, and I've never denied such.

Andy, this is arminianism.

 

[Brother Bob]

This:

Sorry I didn't mean to sound combative, forgive I just get too involved sometimes.

Have you ever visted one of our churches up there in Yspilanti, Ecorse, Taylor and others, all of them Old Regular Baptist?

Is God in the eternal Heaven? When He says he knew you while you were still in your mother's womb, then He was there.

 

[Andy T.]

I think you are confusing God's righteousness with His omnipresence.

No, I just don't see how omnipresence necessarily leads to omnitemporalness. I guess I need to be shown first that the past and future actually exist in the same manner that the present exists, or that God experiences the past, present and future all at once. I see neither as supported by Scripture (or necessarily refuted by Scripture, for that matter).

 

[Andy T.]

Andy, this is arminianism.

Uh? How?..........

 

[webdog]

No, I just don't see how omnipresence necessarily leads to omnitemporalness.

You can't be in "all places at all times"...without being IN all times.

I guess I need to be shown first that the past and future actually exist in the same manner that the present exists, or that God experiences the past, present and future all at once.

You are arguing against unconditional election...thank you. Either God exists in the "now"...and KNOWS who will be saved (open theism: arminianism), He chose unconditionally who would be saved (which is NOT foreknowledge), or He's omnitemporal, and His foreknowledge is based on Him witnessing everything, everywhere, at once.

 

[Andy T.]

Sorry I didn't mean to sound combative, forgive I just get too involved sometimes.

Have you ever visted one of our churches up there in Yspilanti, Ecorse, Taylor and others, all of them Old Regular Baptist?

Is God in the eternal Heaven? When He says he knew you while you were still in your mother's womb, then He was there.

Nope, fairly new to the GARBC.

God is everywhere that exists. If the future exists right now, then God is there. Of course, there was a time of existence when I was in my mother's womb, and God knew me.

 

[Brother Bob]

The future exits with God. He is everlasting to everlasting.

Those churches I meantioned are not part of the GARB.

 

[webdog]

Uh? How?..........

Open theism. Here's what whatever (a calvinst) once said on a similar thread...

The idea that God looks "down the road to see who will and who will not accept Him" comes from Arminians. This is not what Calvinists say of Arminians, it is what Arminians say of themselves. Therefore if your premise is correct it is Arminians who deny God's omnipresence.

 

[Brother Bob]

13: Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.

Hate to leave such good company but the old man's nap time but shall return.

 

[webdog]

Gotta run, too. Mom's 54 today!

 

[Jarthur001]

Open theism. Here's what whatever (a calvinst) once said on a similar thread...

Good Night...what happened?

I left a hour ago and we were deep into Supralapsarianism hyper-Calvinisim and now we are in the other extreme..Arminianism.

Oh yes...and with acute Arminianism of open theism at bat.

Oh well...I guess you had to be here to understand.


I'll address all my post with one word. This is the middle ground which is not "open"...is not "super"....but shows the complete work of God.

Infralapsarianism


I have to agree with others...this maybe the best debate we have had in sometime.


Thanks guys....for keeping it above ground.



In Christ..James

 

[Salamander]

Revelation - Chapter 4
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Rev&chapter=4&verse=1&version=kjv
Rev 4:1After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Now how is it God didn't show John what would be hereafter if the future doesn't exist?:laugh:

Just plain simple theology landblasts the calvinist.


raise: :Fish: raise:

 

[Jarthur001]

Now how is it God didn't show John what would be hereafter if the future doesn't exist?:laugh:

Just plain simple theology landblasts the calvinist.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Funny...That was a good one.

But one thing...what in the world are you talking about????

I know of no one that has said the future does not exist.

Good one though.


In Christ...James

 

[Andy T.]

Revelation - Chapter 4

Rev 4:1After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Now how is it God didn't show John what would be hereafter if the future doesn't exist?:laugh:

Just plain simple theology landblasts the calvinist.


:Fish:

That's a good verse. Of course, did John see a vision of the future or did he see the future actually existing? Is the beast of ch. 13 really going to have all those horns and heads and look animal like, or is it a symbol of a nation, organization or individual? Most people I know believe it is a symbol, not an actual creature as depicted. So there is a difference between seeing a vision or symbols of something and actually seeing the thing itself exist in another dimension.

By the way, the Eternal Now theory is held by many a Calvinist. I don't see this as C/A debate. According to Webdog, I'm a clost Arminian! :laugh:

 

[Andy T.]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Funny...That was a good one.

But one thing...what in the world are you talking about????

I know of no one that has said the future does not exist.

Good one though.


In Christ...James

And I should clarify, because I've probably been sloppy with my wording - I believe the future exists, just not in the same manner as the present necessarily. Nor do I find reason to believe that God experiences everything at once.

 

[Andy T.]

You can't be in "all places at all times"...without being IN all times.

You are arguing against unconditional election...thank you. Either God exists in the "now"...and KNOWS who will be saved (open theism: arminianism), He chose unconditionally who would be saved (which is NOT foreknowledge), or He's omnitemporal, and His foreknowledge is based on Him witnessing everything, everywhere, at once.

Sorry, but I'm not following what are you are saying here.

 

[Jarthur001]

And I should clarify, because I've probably been sloppy with my wording - I believe the future exists, just not in the same manner as the present necessarily. Nor do I find reason to believe that God experiences everything at once.

That is easy to see. The debate has moved from "no time"..where we must look at all time including future and now is into ways and the order there of soteriological elements in God's eternal decree. One guy pops in a reads one post and does not know where all 4 of us has been. That is why I laughed. I saw your path in full, therefore I understand.

 

[Andy T.]

Open theism. Here's what whatever (a calvinst) once said on a similar thread...

The idea that God looks "down the road to see who will and who will not accept Him" comes from Arminians. This is not what Calvinists say of Arminians, it is what Arminians say of themselves. Therefore if your premise is correct it is Arminians who deny God's omnipresence.

Or someone could believe that God looks down the corridors of time and He knows what He will do to redeem His elect - he will regenerate them and call them to faith, etc. And that person would be a Calvinist, while at the same time rejecting the Eternal Now theory.

Like I said earlier, I don't see this as a C/A issue - I'm sure there are C's and A's on both sides of the issue.

 

[Brother Bob]

You said you believe God knows how you will die and when. How is that possible unless God has seen all things. How could Jesus stand as a slain Lamb from the foundation of he world if God had not seen Him slain? God sees all things as "Now". He is not bound with time as we are.

Ecc 3:11 He hath made every [thing] beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.