A question about Calvinisum

[Jarthur001]

Again, Cs, please correct me if I am wrong. But, I have a hard time believing anyone becomes a Calvinist before they are saved. Otherwise they would walk through life looking only at their works for evidence that they are indeed part of the elect. At no time would they dare try to play a part in their salvation by asking for it.

"Take and read; take and read"
also..

Please read the sroy of Paul and see what ya think.

 

[russell55]

Well I guess I am right back where I started. If we are predestined to salvation, why did Christ have to die?

Because God still has to have a righteous way to pardon and justify sinners.

Why does Jesus say again and again, repent and believe, what is the purpose for this whole thing,

Because people are still justified through faith. They will not be saved unless they believe.

And if God is love, how is it that He can only love some of us. Doesn't he love even the sinner?

God loves everyone, but he has a special love for those he has chosen, for those who belong to him, just parents have a special love for their children. And those God has chosen are sinners, too, sinners of the same magnitude and sort as everyone else.

And after reading your posts for a few days I don't understand how you c's know you are saved.

Assurance of salvation comes from know that we have repented and believed, and that we love God and love our brethren, etc. etc.

 

[Blammo]

If man is only given free choice as Adam was, man will choose sin as Adam did. We need God to save us from our will.

Does God save us from our will, or the consequences of what results from our will?

I did not choose Christ without the word of God and the Holy Spirit. It was not a choice made without influence from God. He chose me before I chose Him.

 

[russell55]

Hanna,

I hope the Cs will correct me if I am wrong. But, I think they are afraid if man plays any part in even accepting salvation it makes God subject to man (Threatens the sovereignty of God).

Actually, I don't think it's so much a philosophical argument, like this would be, but an understanding, which they gain from scripture, of the condition of mankind since the fall.

It is God who designed the plan of salvation.

Yep, but just putting forward the requirement (or the choice) isn't enough, given the condition that people find themselves in as a result of the fall. He must also meet the requirement for them by producing the right response within them.

He put before man a choice.

Yes.

If man is only capable of one option, it is no choice at all.

Well, for one thing, we need to remember what man's incapacity consists of. It isn't as if he doesn't have a working "chooser", or that he couldn't choose the right option if he wanted to. The incapacity is the result of hostility toward God--they find God distasteful--which means that they never want to choose the right choice, not that they couldn't if they wanted to. I like to use the example of a choice between pizza or lutefisk for supper. I'd invariably choose pizza, because I detest lutefisk and there ain't no way I'm ever choosing it, but that doesn't mean the choice between pizza and lutefisk isn't a real one.

I think we see this in scripture. Take Romans 1, for instance, where it says that people know from the revelation of creation some things about God. However, invariably, according to Romans 1, people suppress that knowledge because they don't like the sort of God revealed in creation, since they would be obligated to him--obligated to obey, worship and thank him.

Anyway, this is all to say that humankind's inability it moral inability. It consists of persistent rebellion against God.

If God causes a man to choose correctly, it does not violate man's will, it violates God's own word. God cannot lie, God does not change, and God's word is truth.

I don't follow this argument. Please explain.

 

[russell55]

Does God save us from our will, or the consequences of what results from our will?

Both. We are born in a state of rebellion as a result of the fall, and our will is rebellious, too. We don't want to align ourselves with God. Of course that rebellion has lots of consequences the we need to be saved from, but we also need to have our rebellious attitude changed done away with so that we become willing to align ourselves with God.

I did not choose Christ without the word of God and the Holy Spirit. It was not a choice made without influence from God. He chose me before I chose Him.

Actually, I don't disagree with this statement, although I bet my definition of influence is stronger than yours. I say that something that influences changes the outcome from what it would have been without that influence.

 

[Blammo]

Russell,

Pizza is not bad for you. (Not really bad anyway) I would choose pizza over lutefisk everytime as well. (and I am Norwegian)

What if you were presented with a choice between ice-cream and brussel sprouts everyday? At first you are unaware of the consequences, but over time you begin to see the results of choosing ice-cream every time. You are getting fat, you have acne, you feel sick, and you don't seem to have any energy. Someone tells you that it is the ice-cream that is doing this to you. They tell you that the brussel sprouts will make you healthy and give you energy. It's tough for you to accept this. Ice-cream tastes good and it makes you feel good while you are eating it. You can't understand why you have to give it up to be healthy. You try to cut back on ice-cream, but you just can't seem to do it. You think maybe if you eat some brussel sprouts with your ice-cream it will help. It doesn't. It just makes the ice-cream taste bad too. Finally someone comes along and offers you pill. They tell you if you take it, it will change your appetite. You will enjoy brussel sprouts and be able to resist ice-cream. You are still a bit reluctant to change, but you are sick and tired of being fat and ugly. After many more days of trying your own way, you finally decide to take the pill. Maybe it will work.

It's not like you had a choice and, without any outside influence, chose the right thing one day. You had to realize some things and someone had to show you a way to escape your nature.

 

[Blammo]

Both. We are born in a state of rebellion as a result of the fall, and our will is rebellious, too. We don't want to align ourselves with God. Of course that rebellion has lots of consequences the we need to be saved from, but we also need to have our rebellious attitude changed done away with so that we become willing to align ourselves with God.

I hate to relate something based on experience instead of Scripture. But, when I was a child, long before I ever believed and was saved, I was scared of God, and I tried as best I could to obey whatever I believed He would have me do. I was not able to be "good" all the time, but I wanted to be, because I was afraid of what God might do to me if I was bad. I never hated God, and I certainly did not desire to rebel against Him.

Actually, I don't disagree with this statement, although I bet my definition of influence is stronger than yours. I say that something that influences changes the outcome from what it would have been without that influence.

I understand, as a Calvinist, you believe in irresistable grace. I believe grace is resistable and I have seen it in Scripture.

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

Who failed? God, Paul, or Agrippa? I say Agrippa.

And this leads me back to the statement I made earlier. (The one you didn't follow) It is God who set the condition for salvation. (believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved) Calvinists always accuse us non-Cals of not allowing God to violate the precious free-will of man. I don't think if God pushed Agrippa into a correct decision it would be a violation of Agrippa's will. I think it would be a violation of God's own word.

Believe and be saved does not equal Be saved and believe.

 

[Brother Bob]

It seems like the Bible says Christ chooses US. Look and see if that is what it says and get back with us.
Please take salvation out of the hands of men and place it in Gods hands. Thanks.

While you are at it, look and see if God elects before we are born.

Thank God for His controling power!!!!

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose [the things] that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

[Allan]

Don't ask me how but it triple posted my posting~!!!

 

[Allan]

Don't ask me how but it was triple posted!!

 

[Allan]

Allan,

John goes over this in great detail. Lets look.

4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

NOTE: I want you to notice why they overcome. Because of what is in you. Now this proves nothing by itself. But it may mean something later.

5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.


NOTE: The "they" in this verse is from verse 3.

"they" are confessed for "they" and of the world and not of God.

6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

NOTE:...the reason why we hear, is because we are born of God. And what of those that are not born of God? Well..John says those that are not born of God, do not hear.

NOTE: In addressing our subject, what we need to remember here is.."each and every one that "loveth"....is born of God. This is speaking of loving God and other believers. So...you must be born of God, to love God.

NOTE: If you love not God....if you love not other believes...you do not know God...nor are not born of God.(back to verse 7)

NOTE: We live (new birth) through Christ. We all agree.

10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

NOTE: Notive this is what love is. God loved us that we can love Him. Yet remember...we can not love Him, unless we are born of God. So...God loves us..we are born again...and then we love God.

NOTE: the reason why we dwell in Him. Because He(God) has given us(believer) the Spirit to understand the truth. Remember above...the world cannot overcome...for they cannot hear(understand)...for they are not born of God. How can they believe? They cannot. How can they overcome the devil and love God? They cannot. We do not love God to get the overcoming power. God loves us and gives us understanding(born again) to love God..therefore we are saved, for we are in love with God.

Who starts this all....tis God. Look in verse 19...


Just as seen above. We love GOD...only because He loved us 1st.

1 John 5

In Christ...James

James, in context this is not speaking about WHY a person is saved but about a SAVED person in relation to God. If this is what John is speaking of here (that regeneration precedes faith or belief to BE a Child of God or you are born that you may believe) in the Calvinistic perspective is absolutely contradictory of John 1 specifically John 1:12-13 where belief precedes being born [again]. If I take your persective on the Passage in 1 John 5 I go back and forth from before salvation and salvation trying to determine which it is speaking of instead on one cohesive thought refering to those who are ALREADY saved because of their faith in Christ. They can not in ANY shape, form, or fashion over come the World and NOT be saved but as your view would put it they did. Not only improbable but impossible as God states only Christ has overcome the World and only those IN Christ (the Saved - those who have already believed) and potentially in Christ.

According to context I have to disagree with you but not only that I have to based on the other scriptures that place regeneration after faith.

As I stated before, regeneration before salvation (that the Calvinist equate to being born again) is something that is only philosophical argument and NOT actually something found in scripture. I have yet to read any Calvinstic work that establishes regeneration before salvation via the scriptures.

 

[MB]

MB, do you think that belief is an exercise of the will?

Nope; Faith is the product of being convinced of the truth by the Holy Spirit. The will of man is exercised toward Jesus when man is convinced. However man must first be willing to listen to the word. Man must be willing to consider the truth of God's word. Still this doesn't save men because the righteousness of men is dirty rags. Man does nothing if he will but listen. Mans faith is the product of the works of God. Still this doesn't save man. When men are convinced by the Holy Spirit they have enough faith to put on the righteousness of Christ. It is in this righteousness that we have the faith of Christ and we are justified by His faith and righteousness, not our own.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
This is how we are saved by Jesus Christ alone and not of our selves. We still have to be willing to listen. Our will does play a part, but we are not saved by our will.
MB

 

[Hanna]

Faith is the product of being convinced of the truth by the Holy Spirit.
MB

Do you have scripture for this?

 

[Hanna]

I had asked how a Calvinist could have a child believing that it may be among the unchosen. The response, which I now cannot find...sorry, asked how I could have a child knowing he could grow up to be a murderer.

The reason is because the Bible tells me that if I raise a child in the way he should go he will not depart from it. The Bible also tells me that God loves my child even more than I do. The Bible tells me that the fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. And because my child will have the same opportunity I did to choose life or death. There is hope. For the Calvinist, there is no hope. Its all a crap shoot. That is horrifying to me

 

[Brother Bob]

I am glad that God loves everyone and I can preach to the whole world that very message............................

 

[Jarthur001]

James, in context this is not speaking about WHY a person is saved but about a SAVED person in relation to God. If this is what John is speaking of here (that regeneration precedes faith or belief to BE a Child of God or you are born that you may believe) in the Calvinistic perspective is absolutely contradictory of John 1 specifically John 1:12-13 where belief precedes being born [again]. If I take your persective on the Passage in 1 John 5 I go back and forth from before salvation and salvation trying to determine which it is speaking of instead on one cohesive thought refering to those who are ALREADY saved because of their faith in Christ. They can not in ANY shape, form, or fashion over come the World and NOT be saved but as your view would put it they did. Not only improbable but impossible as God states only Christ has overcome the World and only those IN Christ (the Saved - those who have already believed) and potentially in Christ.

Come now Allan,


We have two passages that SEEM to conflict, and your answer is to change the one that does not agree with you? Surely I read you wrong. Why not make both of them work together??

As I stated before, regeneration before salvation (that the Calvinist equate to being born again) is something that is only philosophical argument and NOT actually something found in scripture. I have yet to read any Calvinstic work that establishes regeneration before salvation via the scriptures.

You have no passage for you would change what I posted to fit your other passage. What I posted was not out of line. Maybe we should change your passage?? (kidding)

Really, there is no need to change anything. I think it all fits. But what you asked for was a passage, and that is what I posted.

 

[Jarthur001]

I am glad that God loves everyone and I can preach to the whole world that very message............................

Yes God does all mankind. But God does not love all men the same. Right?

 

[Brother Bob]

No, He is a special saviour to the believer. What I been saying all along.

 

[Jarthur001]

The reason is because the Bible tells me that if I raise a child in the way he should go he will not depart from it. The Bible also tells me that God loves my child even more than I do. The Bible tells me that the fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. And because my child will have the same opportunity I did to choose life or death. There is hope. For the Calvinist, there is no hope. Its all a crap shoot. That is horrifying to me

You quoted a proverb and not a promise.

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." (Proverbs 22:6)

Many Mothers and Fathers do train their child in the right way and yet the child ends up in the world. Being a good mother and father does not mean you will have a born again child. My girls are all grown now. All three are serving the Lord full time. But I cannot claim it was me that caused this. I made many mistakes as a dad. There were greater dads them I, that have kids in jail.

If you hope is in your training, you place your hope in the wrong thing. Your hope should always be in God. When young mothers and fathers ask me about child rearing, I tell them about 3 books they need to buy. I they them to read the books and then place them on the shelf. One cannot raise a child with a book. One can only raise a child on their knees. Pray each day for each child and leave it in the hands of God.

I am a Calvinist and I would have to disagree about no hope. My hope is in God that is in full control of the universe. You have said a lot about Gods love. God is a God of love. God is more then just loving, He is the very essence of love itself. With no God, we have no love. But think a bit with me please. If God is not in control of all things, what good is Gods love? If we cannot count on Gods love when we need it most, for God has not the power or the control to bring His love to us, then His love does us no good. I have full hope in God for He is King of His Kingdom, in full control of ALL that He made, and made all things with mere words from His mouth. I can COUNT on God and have this hope because He is in control.

I have hope for salvation is in Gods hands. If I sin, I do not loss my salvation. If salvation was of me, I would have no hope at all. God will not leave me as a believe, and will not let me leave. My hope is in a God in full control of my salvation, knowing what He has started in me, He will someday make perfect.

I have hope for God cares for his sheep. Who God loves He also chasens. God does not chasen those not in the fold. God chasens me to bring me back. He test me to make me strong. If I need my leg broke, I can count on God to break it. This gives me great hope for God cares about me.

I have much hope for God listens to my prayers. The close fellowship found in prayer when God draws me more toward His holy will and away from my will. My will sins. Gods will is pure. I ask God to remove my will and let me alone live for Him. I have hope for God does guild me in life down the path of his will. God does remove my will, as I ask him. I have hope in prayer for I can ask God to change the heart of a sinner and He will. God has waited till I prayed to change the man, for God wanted to build my faith in God.


With no God, I have no hope. With God, there is all hope.



In Christ...James

 

[Hanna]

I didn't say there was a guarantee that they would be saved. However I can honestly say salvation is possible for every single one of them and for every other child born into this world. You can't.