A question about God's justice

[KenH]

Originally posted by romanbear:
Just where do you read in scripture that Adam lost any ability

God told Adam that in the day he ate of the forbidden fruit he would die. He didn't die physically the same day he ate it, but he did die spiritually. And in dying spiritually, he(and his descendants) lost the ability to do anything to save himself from his lost condition.

We are saved by God's grace alone. Period. This is the clear teaching of Scripture. I urge you to accept it, my friend.

 

[Ray Berrian]

I said, 'They were each living under another system that led to their relationship to God. Yes, Abraham offered a lamb for atonement, and it was his obedience to God that provided the application of Christ's atonement which made him fit for Heaven.'

Brother Dallas, when Christ applies the blood to the life of the sinner under any covenant, this is called, grace. It happens when a person believes and trusts in God. [Acts 2:21;Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8] No one gets to Heaven apart from Jesus sprinkling His own blood on their soul. I know you believe in this.

Regards . . .

 

[Pastor J.R. Hampton]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
God told Adam that in the day he ate of the forbidden fruit he would die. He didn't die physically the same day he ate it, but he did die spiritually. And in dying spiritually, he(and his descendants) lost the ability to do anything to save himself from his lost condition.

Ken, this is a good point. You are saying that the ability was given to Adam and lost by Adam because he died spiritually when he sinned. Am I right?

Are people who are spiritually dead unable to respond in faith to the gospel? If so, where does the Bible teach us that?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Pastor J.R. Hampton:
Am I right?

Are people who are spiritually dead unable to respond in faith to the gospel? If so, where does the Bible teach us that?

Yes.

Yes.

I find Ephesians 2:1-10 informative on this subject as the Holy Spirit had Paul to write that it is God who made us alive. There is no indication that we did anything to contribute in our coming to life.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pastor J.R. Hampton:
Am I right?

Are people who are spiritually dead unable to respond in faith to the gospel? If so, where does the Bible teach us that?

Yes.

Yes.

I find Ephesians 2:1-10 informative on this subject as the Holy Spirit had Paul to write that it is God who made us alive. There is no indication that we did anything to contribute in our coming to life. </font>[/QUOTE]Eph. 2:1-10
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins 2 in which you previously walked according to this worldly age, according to the ruler of the atmospheric domain, the spirit now working in the disobedient. 3 We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and by nature we were children under wrath, as the others were also.

4 But God, who is abundant in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us, 5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. By grace you are saved! 6 He also raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavens, in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages He might display the immeasurable riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift-- 9 not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are His making, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.

Ken, the Pastor asked: "Are people who are spiritually dead unable to respond in faith to the gospel? If so, where does the Bible teach us that?"

Can you point out to us in this passage where that question is answered?

It never says people are unable to respond in faith to the gospel. It says that we are dead in the trespasses and sins in which we once walked and it says we are saved by Grace through faith.

The phrase "and this is not of yourselves" is highly debatable as to be in reference to "grace" or "faith." And since throughout scripture we see Grace as attributed to be from God and faith as seen as from man we can easily understand this passage.

Rom. 3:26-31 clearly shows that Paul views faith as man's response to God's grace and does not regard faith as reason in which we should boast.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Pastor J.R. Hampton:
At first glance I would say the answer to this question is, "no." It seems that all God demands from his creation He enables them to accomplish through his appointed means. Am I wrong?

Can we obey the law to the degree it is commanded?

 

[KenH]

Brother Bill,

Here are the relevant portions of the passage to which I was referring.

I hope this helps.

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins

 But God...made us alive

He also raised us up with Him

For we are His making, created in Christ Jesus

 

[Ray Berrian]

As spokespersons for Biblical theology we suggest and deeply know that salvation is all of grace. [Ephesians 2:8] Every sinner cannot even lift his left foot in contributing to our personal salvation. Even after we are saved our future hope of glory happens because of His mighty power to make it happen for us. No one else can do this for us other than Jesus.

This does not mean, however, that God does not call for and demand a faith/trust coming from every sinner. [Acts 17:30] He ' . . . now commands all men {not merely the alleged elect} everywhere to repent.' God makes humans responsible after hearing the Gospel. No sinner will ever be able to claim that God did not ordain him to Heaven, as his excuse.

Dr. J. Steven Harper speaking for John Wesley said, 'Wesley, however, put his confidence in God's sovereignty at another place, namely, that God's ultimate will for all creation and God's complete rule over all creation can take into account any and all human choices and yet not be undermined. A negative choice works to the "eternal ruin" of the person who makes it, not to the erosion of the nature of God who allows it.' (Dr. J. Steven Harper "Four Views on Eternal Security," Zondervan Publishing, p. 233)

The Lord has taken into account the choices of people either in welcoming Him or turning Him aside forever. [John 3:18]

 

[Yelsew]

God told Adam that in the day he ate of the forbidden fruit he would die. He didn't die physically the same day he ate it, but he did die spiritually. And in dying spiritually, he(and his descendants) lost the ability to do anything to save himself from his lost condition.

Rather oxymoronic i'd say.

What ability was lost? Before Adam sinned there was nothing for him to save himself from. He was already in the most ideal of place man could be. He was in a paradise garden, completely sinless, walking and talking daily with his creator, being look upon with divine delight. Who would want to be saved from that?

As for lost abilities resulting from sin, man lost the relationship that Adam enjoyed with God, therefore man surely died that day. The created man did not lose any ability that God created man to have including the ability to hear, believe and choose.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Rather oxymoronic i'd say.

Not really perhaps. Perhaps Adam could have interceded for Eve before he sinned himself.

As for the rest of your post, as you already know, you and I don't agree on what the Bible teaches about man's condition pre- and post-Fall.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian

Brother Dallas, when Christ applies the blood to the life of the sinner under any covenant, this is called, grace. It happens when a person believes and trusts in God. [Acts 2:21;Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8] No one gets to Heaven apart from Jesus sprinkling His own blood on their soul. I know you believe in this.

I am not necessarily going to disagree with you here brother. I do view the 'sprinkling' as such as to carry us back to the picture in Ex. 12.12-13 of the blood being put upon the doorposts of the Israelite dwelling. At least I can see the imagery of it. However, I believe what carries men to heaven of the Old and New dispensation is the entrance of our high Priest into the holy of holies, not without blood, to sprinkle that upon the mercy seat of God.

Bro. Dallas

 

[romanbear]

Hi Ken the Spurgeonite;

Since I'm not a Calvinist. You probably think I must be an Arminian although I'm neither. I'm a born again Christian and born willingly in to Jesus Christ.

Unlike you I wasn't made to be Christian it was my choice given me by My Lord and Savior.
Yes I have Grace from my Lord. It was His Precious blood is what truly saved me. As far as accepting it I have, over 40 years ago. Haven't you?

Just in case you think I forgot. You still haven't shown me where the Bible says we lost our freewill. Show me if you can?.

This is my point in case you missed it, loosing our freewill is just another Calvinist rationalization believing in things that aren't there.

Romanbear

[ April 10, 2003, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[KenH]

If you look at my previous emails on page 6 of this thread, I believe I showed in Ephesians chapter 2 that the Bible teaches we are unable to respond in repentance and faith until God raises us to new life in Christ Jesus.

[ April 10, 2003, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Yelsew]

Interestingly, if Calvin and Augustine did the dastardly deeds you say, that puts them in the same corral as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other early Mormon leaders, for they too were murderers.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Interestingly, if Calvin and Augustine did the dastardly deeds you say, that puts them in the same corral as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other early Mormon leaders, for they too were murderers.

There you go. Just another example of why you non-Calvinists have to be edited by the moderators.

I guess ya'll's theological case is so weak that you can't debate using the Bible but instead must resort to perjorative language. This forum does not exist to debate the personalities and histories of various dead theologians.

In case you want to know about the case of John Calvin and Michael Servetus, fine, then go here - www.whatloveisthis.com/stickelberger.html. Maybe you should do some research before you start piling on.

But it has no bearing on the truth of the Biblical doctrines of God's amazing grace.

 

[Yelsew]

Ken, the Pastor asked: "Are people who are spiritually dead unable to respond in faith to the gospel? If so, where does the Bible teach us that?"

People who are spiritually dead have no faith, but they can respond to the gospel and come to faith! That is, after all, the purpose of the Gospel! So quit putting the cart before the horse!

 

[Frogman]

quit saying you have a horse when all you have is a cart.

Bro. Dallas

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
So quit putting the cart before the horse!

I cannot for I believe I would be lying if I did so. You don't want me to lie, do you?

You and I do not agree on this subject and we may never agree on this subject this side of Heaven. So don't tell me to do something I am not going to do as I believe I have the horse and cart properly aligned.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
Interestingly, if Calvin and Augustine did the dastardly deeds you say, that puts them in the same corral as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other early Mormon leaders, for they too were murderers.

There you go. Just another example of why you non-Calvinists have to be edited by the moderators.

I guess ya'll's theological case is so weak that you can't debate using the Bible but instead must resort to perjorative language. This forum does not exist to debate the personalities and histories of various dead theologians.

In case you want to know about the case of John Calvin and Michael Servetus, fine, then go here - www.whatloveisthis.com/stickelberger.html. Maybe you should do some research before you start piling on.

But it has no bearing on the truth of the Biblical doctrines of God's amazing grace. </font>[/QUOTE]I would have included them with the likes of Saul, but Saul's persecution of Christians occured before he himself became a Christian and had a name change to Paul. It appears that Calvin, Augustine, Brigham Young and Joseph committed their persecution of Christians while claiming to be Christians.

 

[Yelsew]

Faith before the Gospel?

Not even the doctrine of regeneration says that. After All the Apostle that wrote the second chapter of Ephesians told us that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

To have it your way, "faith causes hearing and hearing caused the word of God"